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An honest Message to the Enforcement

Discussion in 'Discussions' started by _Luk, Mar 22, 2018.

  1. _Luk

    _Luk One of Us

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    In the course of the last weeks and months, we have collected multiple opinions about the way enforcement is handled on Minecraft Middle-earth, and were surprised to encounter a consensus of dissatisfaction. Many enforcers do not interpret their job as keeping the community a nice place, but banning every kind of more mature banter, and calling those practising it immature. The Question to be asked here is, did anyone suffer from these jokes? Did it actually have influence on the Server as a whole? No. Actually the constant threatening of banning someone for such behavior makes an even worse impression, noone wants to spend time in an environment so focused on censoring.

    It seems like the power enforcers posess grew over their own head, creating a parallel universe of some sort, where negativity, or criticism is evil, but pretending to be fine all the time is what shows maturity.

    Another problem are the rules, or to be more precise, the way they are enforced. Like we have already mentioned there is no room for jokes, and oftentimes joking around with each other is seen as joking against someone. Some enforcers clearly lack the experience to see the difference here. In our opinion the rules are being enforced way to strictly here. Of course it is hard to enforce a community consisting of various players, young - old, however the biggest groups probably is the age group of 16+. The server should be enforced based upon this age group. It is impossible to please everyone, so it should be important to keep in mind what our communities core and heart is.

    What is the most important rank on a building server? The builder or the enforcement side? Currently many members feel like the enforcers think, that they themselves are above all the other ranks, while this is not the case. Enforcers are and should be on the same level as designers. As both of their jobs are equally important. However the power they hold does not show this. That's why we suggest that Enforcers should be stripped of the powers to handle against designers in a way such as OB'ing and Banning: Leave this to only the heads of the server and give the community, especially fellow staff members a bigger insight into the process. This should from our perspective balance the rank system, as it appears very unbalanced as it is. Another important aspect, how come enforcers are allowed to decide on the new designers being promoted, However when new enforcers are selected, it all goes behind the scenes and in the hands of the other enforcers and not the rest of the staff team. This furthermore suggests a inequality in power. We are not saying they should not be able to voice opinions altogether, but rather that it should be able for both sides. (Also it seems like the Enforcers influence on the decisions is considerable, keeping in mind that Designers should know their Builders the best, as they have the most in common with Artists or any other none staff building rank)

    Now to your enforcers, some of you might take this as personal attack, lies, but we believe, if there is a considerable part of the community voicing these concerns, they are to be heard, and not to be seen as unwanted background noise. We have little hopes that anything will change and many of have been part of this community for years, and what those teached us, was that things move slow on here. Even after the drama exactly one year ago, nothing changed. If we may quote: “For the future we want our Enforcers to try to punish bad intentions rather than bad actions”. Did that change? It does not seem to be the case. So tell us, is there reason to be unhappy about that, we honestly believe so. If change is promised on the base of valid arguments, it should be fulfilled.

    We all love this community, we are all a part of it, we are all friends who share a passion for recreating the world Tolkien created, This has to be the best community we have ever been a part on. And please, dont see this message as just another shitpost or another meme. We are all trying to better the server, and we are sharing our criticism with it in a as constructive way possible. And we think that if we worked together better as a community. we can make it a more enjoyable and worthwhile experience for New and Old players

    Thank you


    Luk, Davy, Kjolsen, Ooits
     
    #1 _Luk, Mar 22, 2018
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2018
  2. thomasd18

    thomasd18 Foreman
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    I also support this thread and think change is needed
     
    NicTheFifth, _Luk and Kjolsen like this.
  3. Indorilian

    Indorilian Yellow flower puncher

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    I’m gunna be completely honest, one of the main reasons I don’t really come on anymore, besides most of the people I used to play with being inactive, is that I’m afraid if I got up to the same sort of shenanigans today that I used to 2 years ago (memeing, banter, cursing, funny photoshops of people) that were deemed relatively OK at the time, I’d probably get in trouble with today’s enforcers.
     
  4. dav3ck

    dav3ck Designer
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    Just to clarify, We dont want to call out anyone, we dont intent to hurt anyone. All we want is to start a healthy conversation about how we might all togetter change the current enforcement, so all parties are happy with it.
     
  5. ooitsbirdo

    ooitsbirdo Foreman
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    Amen to that Indo
     
  6. q220

    q220 Eru Iluvatar
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    I appreciate the concerns brought forward and I see merit in what you say Luk, I think enforcement have gone a bit over the top since last year (where due action was needed though) or so due to numerous incidents and edge-playing with the ToS and enforcers (which in the end is what the enforcers use to justify the bans or warnings, alongside with the instructions written by the Head Enforcer). Most enforcers are not 'out to hunt down people' but are using the infraction table as objective as they can.

    Your example when saying 'punish bad intentions rather than bad actions' is true, because the current system is more based on bad action -> reaction because we thought this was better compared to bad intentions (because what is a bad intention? Do we wait until we see 'evidence' or the result of bad intention? Do we ban when we have reasonable suspicion of bad intention? How do you make a consensus on what is 'bad intention' when you have multiple people in charge of the moderation? ...)

    This 'bad action results in a reaction' we thought was more reasonable and objective compared to the personal judgement of an enforcer whether something was harmful or not.
     
  7. BWOT

    BWOT Head Designer
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    Also we will be addressing this as soon as possible but please understand that this is not going to change overnight.
     
    JustJoren, ryttyr, JordD04 and 3 others like this.
  8. Merluin

    Merluin Foreman
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    Hi Luk and the rest of u,
    I would like to give my opinion on this bad action - bad intention thing. First of All I must say that I do believe that the concept of punishing bad intention is the better way of enforcing in most cases, tho with this setting, the server, discord etc... It might not be. To get someone's intention u have to look at 3 big factors: The context, the overal body language of a person, the actual written and spoken language used.

    1) The context is a very important factor, if not the most important, and I can say, that in most cases here it should be well interpretated.

    2) The overal body language is maybe less important than the context, but still very important for juding the persons intentions. Cause the way people behave tells us if they mean somthing, if they are joking, if they are angry or upset etc... Since the communication happens tru chat or even voicechat most of the time it is impossible to get someone's body language and thusfore this is the first important factor that can't be examined.

    3) The actual written or spoken language can indicate a lot as well, the way someones voice sounds... Specific vocabulary that he/she uses when joking or being sarcastic. When on voicechat this is relatively easier to interprate, but when on chat it is rlly hard. This is a skill that requires us to go stand in the person's shoes and imagine what they are thinking, this is one of Thé most difficult things that exist. Thus this can never be a first indication of bad or not bad intention, but rather extra proof when u allready examined the two factors above.
    From this I think it's safe to conclude that judging bad intention is very hard and in some cases almost impossible on mcme.

    Also, as a player ur meant to know the ToS and rules, thus u may say that breaking this whilst knowing that it's forbidden can always be seen as the intention to do something wrong and so bad intention.

    Even tho I'm a very young and new player, and I don't know the history of the enforecement here on mcme I hope that my opinion is still valued.

    Greeting, Merl
     
    iru, JustJoren, Raffyyy and 2 others like this.
  9. ooitsbirdo

    ooitsbirdo Foreman
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    I don't quite agree with you on that merlin, in past experience I have learned that but just talking or asking why some band players did what they did I learned something that shows their intention, latest example I can give being Epic dovakin, he is a banned player who I spoke to and asked why he was doing some stupid things he was doing and I talked to him about and tried to organise a compromise to try and get him unbanned and being an active member who can be part of the community again. I feel that a solution like that in this case certainly would be much better then banning someone in this cases. However yess some may lie but in that case you need to see of there story is believable and see if their story can correlate to their action they have done on the server
     
    #9 ooitsbirdo, Mar 23, 2018
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2018
    Merluin likes this.
  10. Raffyyy

    Raffyyy Aspiring Commoner

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    As a pretty new player, and one who hasn't fully got into the depths of the community, I'm mixed on this.

    One the one hand, Enforcers are a vastly important part of the community, and at the end of the day, they do their job. From a new player's point of view, they're fine. They try to get involved in the community, which they do. Remember we're only going by what I have seen. I haven't seen what they're like Backstage or when there's not many other people on other than droogs. I don't know, so I won't conclude based on what other people have said.

    Adding to what Dav3 said, we're not trying to hurt, single out or attack anyone. We're not saying everything you're doing is wrong, or even much. We're just trying to make it work better.

    I hope you can include my opinion, from the point of a newish player.
     
  11. Fornad

    Fornad Yellow flower puncher
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    edit: Eag posted this earlier and assumed enforcers deleted it, so I reposted. turns out he deleted it himself by accident because he’s special. Point of the meme stands however

    Luk: "We all love this community, we are all a part of it, we are all friends who share a passion for recreating the world Tolkien created, This has to be the best community we have ever been a part on."

    Also Luk:

    [​IMG]
     
    #11 Fornad, Mar 23, 2018
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2018
    iru, Eaglz24, Kisos and 3 others like this.
  12. MaDIIReD

    MaDIIReD Enforcer
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    @Fornad
    Though I know I play a dangerous game posting a meme, allow me a retort. I hope the admins won't ban me for making memes, because as we all know people have been banned before solely for making memes.

    For context, Eaglz's posts were that same picture twice.[​IMG]

    @peoplewhoareactuallymembersofthiscommunityandnotfornadoreaglz
    That said, yes there are some things enforcers do they shouldn't. And no, I don't think enforcers have any business demoting or banning other staff members. That's why, if I think a fellow staff member has broken rules, I always take this up with the admins rather than acting on my own.
    That said, I think it is important Enforcers have the ability to demote and ban staff members because if ever a designer decides to do some creative voxelling and starts destroying things we must be able to quickly stop that. Ofcourse that should only be done in extreme situations where immediate action is necessary.
     
  13. RubenPieterMark

    RubenPieterMark Dirt Conaisseur
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    I have another suggestion: can enforcers give a short msg explaining why a post was deleted? I just posted quite an appropriate meme which was deleted for an unknown reason. It can be quite irritating.
     
  14. Kjolsen

    Kjolsen Designer
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    I dont know why they deleted it, but we didnt want this discussion to be joined by memers. We wanted a clean discussion, where we could somehow come to an agreement, and perhaps improve the enforcement. Serious opinions are accepted, memes however, are not wanted.
     
    ryttyr and superlolster like this.
  15. Smaug_Niphredil

    Smaug_Niphredil Enforcer
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    Sorry, I thought I selected the notify button to let you know why. It was because it didn't contribute to the discussion.

    If you have something to say, make sure that it constructive and not just a random post.

    Please do not post a comment with the intent to annoy somebody or convey dislike towards them. That is not what this thread is for.
     
  16. mapthor

    mapthor Aspiring Commoner

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    I can agree with Indorilian on this one. I’m still active, and plan to stay active. The enforcers today are good and nice people, but they can be a bit strict at times. Most of the time, the punishment from the enforcer is normal like spamming in server chat or something like that, but other times, people get punished for doing the smallest things. I won’t go into specifics, but you’re going to have to understand that the age range for this server is 12-14 and 16+ and people are going to make some bad jokes and/or memes.
     
  17. dav3ck

    dav3ck Designer
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    Another thing I would like some opinions on, and ways we might be able to improve on this:

    Currently, while promoting a new designers, enforcers have a say in it. Which I totally agree with, the opinion of enforcers really matters in my opinion.
    However what I dont understand Is how designers have in return no saying when it comes to promoted Enforcers.

    I feel like it should either be both ways, or split completely.

    And in my opinion it should be that both partys have a say in both promotions.
     
    ryttyr, lolbroek108 and mapthor like this.
  18. mapthor

    mapthor Aspiring Commoner

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    I probably won’t ever go for enforcer, but if I did, I’d like the entire staff to vote on it. Which would include designers, enforcers, and the Valar
     
  19. JordD04

    JordD04 One of Us
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    Traditionally MCME simply had the Head Enforcer handle all Enforcer promotions, the Head Designer handled all Designer promotions, and the Head Guide handled all Guide promotions.

    Seems a simpler and smoother way of doing things.
     
  20. ooitsbirdo

    ooitsbirdo Foreman
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    Thanks Jord that a reasonable suggestion, doesnt require much change and would be a lot more effective in my opinion.
     
    lolbroek108, JordD04 and Kjolsen like this.