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An Improvement to MCME's Projects

NicTheFifth

Foreman
Donor
Foreman
~~~~~IMPROVING MCME’S PROJECTS~~~~~
By NicTheFifth


Welcome dear reader to my third post, this time I would like to discuss something which I could be improved, the ways projects are led and the roles within a project. There will be a summary at the end in bold ‘Summary’, for those not who don’t have a lot of spare time. So let’s jump right in!

First I would like to say that the current build up of project leader, second in command and project staff is a system that works fine, but I think it could be expanded upon for ease of the project leader and our esteemed head builder BWOT. What I propose is to keep those above, yet add to them two roles. These roles would be reporter and researcher/lore adviser.

Reporter
This rank is quite self explanatory, but I shall explain in detail what said role would do and what it’s value is. Let’s start with the basis, what would said role do? The reporter would, as its name suggests, report on the updates for the projects, he/she will try to stay as updated as possible on the project and make sure that the public is informed of progress. This role would also write the updates for BWOT that encompass as much detail and if possible they would also write the piece for the MCME times concerning their project. I would recommend having two people for this role, that way if one can’t work on their task, the other can take over.
The main reason why I think that this is an important role that does not necessarily have to be the current project leader is that a project leader usually is a designer, thus already has a lot to do. Thus writing the updates in combination with actually running the project will take a lot longer.

Researcher/lore adviser
This role’s focus is on the lore aspect of the project, thus if something is being made, example being the central dwelling in Moria, then the person with said role could be contacted to get the lore aspect correct for the build. This role would probably be best suited to be a Guide, as then they also have a bit more of a role within the building community, which would further integrate their usefulness, yet if there is no guide willing to do this task, then it would have to fall to a designer or artist to take over.

Summary
Thus in short, I would like to propose an extension of roles within a project. The extension would be the Reporter, and the Researcher/Lore advisor roles. The Reporter would report on the going ons within the project, write project updates and possibly writes for the MCME Times concerning said project. Whilst the Researcher/Lore advisor would do the research about the lore behind the project and can be the point from which you can ask how something would be done from a lore standpoint.

I thank you for reading this, even if you have only read the Summary and hope that you, my esteemed reader will always think critically, and have a great day! Nic out.
 

RubenPieterMark

Artist
Artist
Donor
Media Team
Reporter
This rank is quite self explanatory, but I shall explain in detail what said role would do and what it’s value is. Let’s start with the basis, what would said role do? The reporter would, as its name suggests, report on the updates for the projects, he/she will try to stay as updated as possible on the project and make sure that the public is informed of progress. This role would also write the updates for BWOT that encompass as much detail and if possible they would also write the piece for the MCME times concerning their project. I would recommend having two people for this role, that way if one can’t work on their task, the other can take over.
The main reason why I think that this is an important role that does not necessarily have to be the current project leader is that a project leader usually is a designer, thus already has a lot to do. Thus writing the updates in combination with actually running the project will take a lot longer.
Imo if there are ~3 project staff members, at least one of them should be able to [be pushed to] reporting the state of the project now and then. Assigning one person to this task alone seems unnecessarily bureaucratic as a task for one person. Instead maybe give one person of the project staff the responsibility to report the state of the project?

Researcher/lore adviser
This role’s focus is on the lore aspect of the project, thus if something is being made, example being the central dwelling in Moria, then the person with said role could be contacted to get the lore aspect correct for the build. This role would probably be best suited to be a Guide, as then they also have a bit more of a role within the building community, which would further integrate their usefulness, yet if there is no guide willing to do this task, then it would have to fall to a designer or artist to take over.
I like this idea, and I'd also be interested in doing this (;
Rn people do discuss the lore or realism, but the conclusions are usually just disregarded. Giving somebody the specific task of research would benefit the influence and it would definitely improve realism.
 

BWOT

Hardcore MCME-er
Donor
Actually @NicTheFifth your idea isn't far off from one me and @Arkengard were talking about in perhaps integrating Guides a bit more with the projects. I cannot honeslty remember of what became of that decision, however it was fairly similair to what you are suggesting. For me, I am all for something like this. I would like to hear Arken's opinion though. I'm sure we could also have this open to other people other than guide as well, but again good suggestion.
 

NicTheFifth

Foreman
Donor
Foreman
@BWOT Arkengarde and I actually came to the conclusion at the same time about the lore people. Also I think it is fine to have it open to other people, just that the preference goes to a guide when possible.
 

Eaglz24

Hardcore MCME-er
Or, you know, just get the project leader(s) to take on those roles by default instead of incorporating yet another meaningless layer of rank-semantics for no apparent reason. The fact that you're suggesting the introduction of another role/rank whatever you want to call it (in essence it's the same as adding another rank but without the color and in-game name) to fulfill a duty that is so amazingly insignificant and arbitrary boggles my mind honestly. I know you've been on a bit of a spicy tirade recently against how things are run here which I can hardly blame you for, but what you're suggesting is only making things worse and more complicated.

BWOT/Ark almost have the right idea by just getting the Guides to do it if the project leaders are too fucking incapable of researching their own lore for their projects, and not being able to write up a two-sentence summary that takes a whopping 2 minutes at the most. In one sense the Guides are already a complete and utter waste of space and perfectly illustrate all the rank-semantics so having them actually do something meaningful beyond organizing a mini-game for Xx_creeperslayer_xX once a month would help. But on the other hand if you want a push towards an iota of pragmatism then having Guides at all is retarded.

This whole rank/role shit is beyond a meme at this point and every time we see one of these threads it gives us a hearty-chuckle. It's become post-ironic.
 

Tobberz

Aspiring Commoner
Commoner
In order to avoid the introduction of further roles & ranks, simply have an "Official Guide" for each project, or major project, whose job it is to advise specifically on the lore. Of course the Project Leader should know as much about the lore of their project as possible, but it would be prudent to have someone to turn to, rather than having to look it up themselves.
 

RubenPieterMark

Artist
Artist
Donor
Media Team
The thing is, the most important research for most projects is not Middle-earth lore, but realism. I don't think that guides would know more about that than the builder ranks
 

Blockfant

Designer
Staff member
Designer
Moderator
Donor
I dont think adding another role to an already complex system of ranks is a good idea.

First of all the reporter, this is just another inbetween person adding nothing of importance to the project. All this person would be is a messanger from the Project staff to the rest of the community, Updating the community about progress is up too the staff of the project or maybe the individual members who are working on it( for example, State whenever you complete a hall in moria). As a project leader I would just have to explain all my plans to the Reporter, which would be pretty much the same amount of work as typing it out myself in an update post on the forums. This is just another layer susceptible for error that is only going to add confusion.

Secondly the Lore / Realism Role. Let me state that I do agree that in this area Guides should be more involved in the building process, However too Assign an Official Guide to each project is just a bad idea. To begin with, especially when it comes to realism, this is very opinion related. Many different designers/artists/guides have different fews on what would be realistic, or if it even should be extremely realistic. Same when it comes to the Lore of the areas with little to non information on it. These things should be debated by the intire community within the Project threat, and not discussed in some private discord group with 2 "Lore masters" and the Project staff.Besides that I can already imagen this role in action,

"Hey, have you written up the Lore of this project already so we can get started?"
"I've done some researching but not done yet"
-Week later-
"Hey, any update on the lore"
"Ehm working on it"
-2 weeks later-
"U done yet?"
"Sorry been busy with real life, You should ask someone else to do it"
".... (ノಠ益ಠ)ノ彡┻━┻ "

What im trying to show is that this Layer is just another place for projects to get delayed, and for people to not do their responsibilities. Same thing that happened to an extend with the Assistants (5/6 resigning after only a couple of months). I understand that every person sometimes doesnt have the time to work on a project he does for a hobby, However getting more individual people involved with the planning of a project (the most important fase before any project can even begin) is just going to take even longer and be more problematic. Especially when it comes down to only one person. This is different with project staff, if for example the project leader is MIA, then theres the co-leader to safe the day.
Lets now for another example take a more positive few of the person and he actually delivers quick and with effort put into it. Next we post it to the forums, Oh whats that people dont agree with it, a point this person missed is brought up. The project staff partly agrees with the critisism on the work of the Lore Master, lets Rewrite! Something that could have been avoided if it was done with feedback from the community to begin with. And then if someone starts complaining months after the project started, well you should have said something that earlier during the discussion u dumdum.

So I do think Guides / Artists should be more involved with the Lore/ realism aspects of a project, but this should be a responbility of the guide and something Arken can for example push his Guides to do, to get involved with the Lore accuracy within the project threat (because thats what its there for!), same ofcourse goes for Realism. But Im strongly against this idea because it may seem great on paper, But in reality I dont see it ever working and just slowing down progress and causing irritation.
 
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ooitsbirdo

Lead Builder
Staff member
Lead Builder
Designer
I dont think adding another role to an already complex system of ranks is a good idea.

First of all the reporter, this is just another inbetween person adding nothing of importance to the project. All this person would be is a messanger from the Project staff to the rest of the community, Updating the community about progress is up too the staff of the project or maybe the individual members who are working on it( for example, State whenever you complete a hall in moria). As a project leader I would just have to explain all my plans to the Reporter, which would be pretty much the same amount of work as typing it out myself in an update post on the forums. This is just another layer susceptible for error that is only going to add confusion.

Secondly the Lore / Realism Role. Let me state that I do agree that in this area Guides should be more involved in the building process, However too Assign an Official Guide to each project is just a bad idea. To begin with, especially when it comes to realism, this is very opinion related. Many different designers/artists/guides have different fews on what would be realistic, or if it even should be extremely realistic. Same when it comes to the Lore of the areas with little to non information on it. These things should be debated by the intire community within the Project threat, and not discussed in some private discord group with 2 "Lore masters" and the Project staff.Besides that I can already imagen this role in action,

"Hey, have you written up the Lore of this project already so we can get started?"
"I've done some researching but not done yet"
-Week later-
"Hey, any update on the lore"
"Ehm working on it"
-2 weeks later-
"U done yet?"
"Sorry been busy with real life, You should ask someone else to do it"
".... (ノಠ益ಠ)ノ彡┻━┻ "

What im trying to show is that this Layer is just another place for projects to get delayed, and for people to not do their responsibilities. Same thing that happened to an extend with the Assistants (5/6 resigning after only a couple of months). I understand that every person sometimes doesnt have the time to work on a project he does for a hobby, However getting more individual people involved with the planning of a project (the most important fase before any project can even begin) is just going to take even longer and be more problematic. Especially when it comes down to only one person. This is different with project staff, if for example the project leader is MIA, then theres the co-leader to safe the day.
Lets now for another example take a more positive few of the person and he actually delivers quick and with effort put into it. Next we post it to the forums, Oh whats that people dont agree with it, a point this person missed is brought up. The project staff partly agrees with the critisism on the work of the Lore Master, lets Rewrite! Something that could have been avoided if it was done with feedback from the community to begin with. And then if someone starts complaining months after the project started, well you should have said something that earlier during the discussion u dumdum.

So I do think Guides / Artists should be more involved with the Lore/ realism aspects of a project, but this should be a responbility of the guide and something Arken can for example push his Guides to do, to get involved with the Lore accuracy within the project threat (because thats what its there for!), same ofcourse goes for Realism. But Im strongly against this idea because it may seem great on paper, But in reality I dont see it ever working and just slowing down progress and causing irritation.
cool story bro
 

Samfries_Taranoc

Builds Diagonally
Guide
Not to be rude, but I'm pretty sure this is a place for a discussion, and not memes or snide/sarcastic comments.

Personally, I'm not averse to more guide integration into projects, but I agree with Dave in that more roles and more delays is a bad thing.

The thing is, the most important research for most projects is not Middle-earth lore, but realism. I don't think that guides would know more about that than the builder ranks
1) What do you mean by realism - as in making realistic climates and buildings and such, or something else.
2) What makes you think that? - surely knowledge of how the real world works is something anyone can have regardless of their rank.

However, I do agree that we don't need more roles. I think it's a good idea to have people thinking about lore accuracy and realism, but I'd say that if we want to be as inclusive as possible a good idea would be to possibly have a different way for the general public to input thoughts on realistic design.

(I'm new so feel free to ignore me)
 

Eaglz24

Hardcore MCME-er
I would imagine these would be roles within the project, not actually a rank/role on the server. Thus not cluttering our oh so memeable rank system.

Hope you have a great day,
Mad
I used ranks/roles or duties/positions or whatever you want to call them interchangeably. When you narrow them down it's essentially the same thing just without a color and in-game tag.

Love u too bb
 

BWOT

Hardcore MCME-er
Donor
You are all not wrong in that it does add more complexity to the system and that is probably worse. Dave is right that it will just lead to more confusion in too many official roles and that people should help out where they can. In saying all that though...

There has been an ever growing movement or idea that we are making Designers obsolete, taking away their privlages and etc. However, I feel that it is somewhat opposite in reality. Eaglz is right, designers should do proper planning of their project, it is their project and if they want it approved they need to learn how to present it accordingly, not other people do it for them. Designers should also properly update their project: should happen on forums and continuous developments should be shared to rest of designers with me in the proper channel on discord. Designers have the ability to do so much with their project, also (this may be a surprise), but one of the big perks a designer has is the ability to submit a proposal for a new project, now... that hasn't been done in like forever, and its usually me who has to help in the planning and etc and tell people, hey I need this are done.

Maybe I haven't drilled it into some people's brains enough but I think this should be about it when I say Designers have been a bit lazy when it comes to these tasks. Not saying it is necessarily fun to do all this research (however I don't mind it, and if you do I question why you are desginer), but it has to be done so we can have high quality projects. All in all we could all probably do more on our part: artists can ask designers for tasks or larger projects if they want, foreman can do just the same as well as ask designers if they need jobs run anywhere, designers can ask me to help out with staff work as well as help other projects and guides can ask project leaders if they need help with gathering lore. Anyone can help with the MCME Times, development, media, or texturing. Just contact one of the admin and we will point you in the right direction.

We will help you get to where you want to go, however, you are the one responsible to start that process and put in the effort.
*ignore the memers and stupid comments

XOXO Your Friendly Admin
 

NicTheFifth

Foreman
Donor
Foreman
I would say that I agree with most what you actually say, yet the issue is that people don't use the forums, look at the Moria thread, so far no update has been posted and the Times' reports on Moria have been rather lacking. Also if we look at the Job list, which is an actual thread, where both Foremen and Designers can post jobs, you can see that it hasn't been used by anyone except for Eriol, and then even only twice. If you wish to not have these roles, then make the people that have the responsibility of updating do the updating!

Also I would like to say, if you have a rank, you have a responsibility, can't you uphold this responsibility, then why do you still have said rank?
 

RubenPieterMark

Artist
Artist
Donor
Media Team
1) What do you mean by realism - as in making realistic climates and buildings and such, or something else.
For the ground plan of a town, you need knowledge and IQ to make it realistic and look convincing, for example. He/she could add professions that are in place in that area. Also the researcher would check the style concepts beforehand, and note some realism improvements. During the project process, he/she should get permission to freely change some buildings, imo, in conversation with the project leader.
2) What makes you think that? - surely knowledge of how the real world works is something anyone can have regardless of their rank.
Yes, this doesn't mean that all builders know more about realism than all guides, but I meant that the lore knowledge of the guides doesn't mean that they have the knowledge to make projects more realistic. An interesting requirement would be that you would need to have written at least 3 (or 5, idk) realism guides before you can become a researcher. This would increase the number of realism guides, obviously, and also increase the knowledge of the researcher. Could be a builder or guide.
However, I do agree that we don't need more roles.
Hm a lot of people seem to think that this would need a new role, but I don't think that Nic ever intended it to be a new role, more something like the Times Editor, or the Media Team.


Personally I think that this is a good idea, especially the researcher role. I am not sure whether Nic's idea was the same as how I interpreted it btw. I see this just as an advisor task, which any ranked person with proven knowledge (min. number of written realism guides) can take on.

I'm new so feel free to ignore me)
I never ignore people
 

Blockfant

Designer
Staff member
Designer
Moderator
Donor
@RubenPieterMark All the things you discribe are themselfs not a bad Idea, However whats the point in specially assigning someone to do this. If u think a concept isn't "Realistic enough" or not Lore Accurate (Realistic in quotation marks because not everybody shares your love for extreme realism) you can comment about it on the forums. Anyone can do this. There is absolutely no point in bringing this in as a seperate role besides someone feeling privilaged. If u want to have a bigger role in designing the concept of a project, apply to be on this projects staff team in general.

If we were all doing this professionally as a job, Yes it would be good to stricly define everyones function. However since this is no more then a hobbie for all of us people are to unrelable. And in these situations its better to have a flexable project staff team to lead a project, and a community to help and comment on decisions for this team. Fitting everyone in there own seperate role within a project is just a system that is going to fail.

All in all the Researcher/ Advisor/ Lore master nic proposted is something that needs to be done by the community, not a specially appointed person. If I were a project leader and the Researcher would come to me with some unrealistic aspects of the concept I would lissen to him the same amount as I would lissen to anyone other member.

and @NicTheFifth If there is a problem in the Moria forum threat, thats something you should take up with Patrick. Or you know a bunch of whats going on in Moria? then why dont u make sure the Moria threat is up to date and used. Often good communication within a project comes down to the project staff.

And since once again this is just a hobbie for everyone, u can't expect everyone to always hold themselfs to their responsibilities. Everybody gets bored sometimes, and thats fine. We should support a system that counters this by having a flexable team not making this problem only worse by having more individual tasks.
 
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ooitsbirdo

Lead Builder
Staff member
Lead Builder
Designer
YDesigners have the ability to do so much with their project, also (this may be a surprise), but one of the big perks a designer has is the ability to submit a proposal for a new project, now... that hasn't been done in like forever, and its usually me who has to help in the planning and etc and tell people, hey I need this are done.
You should probably mention that to designers sometimes
 

RubenPieterMark

Artist
Artist
Donor
Media Team
@RubenPieterMark All the things you discribe are themselfs not a bad Idea, However whats the point in specially assigning someone to do this. If u think a concept isn't "Realistic enough" or not Lore Accurate (Realistic in quotation marks because not everybody shares your love for extreme realism) you can comment about it on the forums. Anyone can do this. There is absolutely no point in bringing this in as a seperate role besides someone feeling privilaged. If u want to have a bigger role in designing the concept of a project, apply to be on this projects staff team in general.

If we were all doing this professionally as a job, Yes it would be good to stricly define everyones function. However since this is no more then a hobbie for all of us people are to unrelable. And in these situations its better to have a flexable project staff team to lead a project, and a community to help and comment on decisions for this team. Fitting everyone in there own seperate role within a project is just a system that is going to fail.

All in all the Researcher/ Advisor/ Lore master nic proposted is something that needs to be done by the community, not a specially appointed person. If I were a project leader and the Researcher would come to me with some unrealistic aspects of the concept I would lissen to him the same amount as I would lissen to anyone other member.

and @NicTheFifth If there is a problem in the Moria forum threat, thats something you should take up with Patrick. Or you know a bunch of whats going on in Moria? then why dont u make sure the Moria threat is up to date and used. Often good communication within a project comes down to the project staff.

And since once again this is just a hobbie for everyone, u can't expect everyone to always hold themselfs to their responsibilities. Everybody gets bored sometimes, and thats fine. We should support a system that counters this by having a flexable team not making this problem only worse by having more individual tasks.
Different people have different skills. Honestly some current designers are great at doing large scale projects without quiting, but they fail at realism. I and other people often comment on realism, in-game, on the forums or on discord, but those suggestions almost always get ignored. A researcher would have way more influence than a random commenter.
 
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