In Progress Dol Amroth

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BWOT

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#21
I am glad to say that Port Town is finished on the surface, the separate project of sewers in now commencing.
 

BWOT

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#22
All work will now go to Middle Town and finishing of Cliff Town (when Patrick gets out of Moria). Meanwhile, planning for the next town (Sea Town) led by Lindolas and Barteldvn are underway.
 

Eriol_Eandur

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#23
I made a >>Google Sheet<< to display the amount of used item blocks in Dol Amroth. In the yellow cell you can search for a string and you will get the sum of all itemblocks which have this string in their name. For example if you type "vert" in the yellow cell you will see the sum of all vertical_half_slabs used in DA.
You can see in the sheet that almos half of all item blocks are only 10 different types. Don't worry about these, I'm quite sure we can move them to normal blocks.
The amounts are from today, I will update the sheet from time to time.
 

Lindolas

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#24
A lot of barrels too.
 

Fireinferno13

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#25
@Thijs1801 can we reduce the number of warps in Belfalas? Half of these are made up names anyway and every other region on Gondor has much lower ratio of towns to warps. Makes the dynmap looked cluttered.
 

Thijs1801

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#26
@Thijs1801 can we reduce the number of warps in Belfalas? Half of these are made up names anyway and every other region on Gondor has much lower ratio of towns to warps. Makes the dynmap looked cluttered.
Sure, but I recall Finrod telling me I could set warps to every village. So I don't know what his thoughts on that are.
 

Patrick_0901

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#27
I am glad to say that all buildings, street decorations interiors, markets and sewers have all been finished in upper cliff town with help from many players, we will now move down to lower cliff town and the Fishing areas
 

Finrod_Amandil

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#28
@Fireinferno13, @Thijs1801 I'd vote for that everything that's clearly a full-fledged village and has a name devised has deserved to get a warp. Theres a number of temporary warps there which will be removed at some point, but else I think the number of warps is okay. If you're bothered by dynmap being cluttered theres a possibility to hide the symbols ;)
 

RubenPieterMark

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#29
@Fireinferno13, @Thijs1801 I'd vote for that everything that's clearly a full-fledged village and has a name devised has deserved to get a warp. Theres a number of temporary warps there which will be removed at some point, but else I think the number of warps is okay. If you're bothered by dynmap being cluttered theres a possibility to hide the symbols ;)
I translated all the Anglicized names in Gondor a few months ago, will they be looked into and changed ingame? Gondor names update
 

BWOT

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#31
Made an update on the main/first post of thread.
 

Eriol_Eandur

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#32
I made some nice progress on the Dol Amroth rp update at last.

Here is a short overview of what will probably be in it:
Powered and unpowered door textures will be swapped. This will require to replace all door, but I hope to do this by plugin. The reason to do this is that it will give use more useful half door textures, with some plugin trickery I managed to double the number of half doors :D
So by this we will be able to move the most used item block trapdoors to normal blocks. This replacement will probably need to be done by hand :confused:

Vertical half slabs will be placed on unused fence gates blocks which will also reduce the amount of item blocks a lot (hand replacement too).

Also some other item blocks will be moved to still unused normal block states (again hand replacement needed).

At the moment we have about 3500 item blocks in Dol Amroth, with the planned changes I guess we can reduce to about 1000.

Today I make most necessary changes to the rp. But I still have to work on the custom inventory and check everything again. I'll be finished "soon".
 

ryttyr

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#33
I made some nice progress on the Dol Amroth rp update at last.

Here is a short overview of what will probably be in it:
Powered and unpowered door textures will be swapped. This will require to replace all door, but I hope to do this by plugin. The reason to do this is that it will give use more useful half door textures, with some plugin trickery I managed to double the number of half doors :D
So by this we will be able to move the most used item block trapdoors to normal blocks. This replacement will probably need to be done by hand :confused:

Vertical half slabs will be placed on unused fence gates blocks which will also reduce the amount of item blocks a lot (hand replacement too).

Also some other item blocks will be moved to still unused normal block states (again hand replacement needed).

At the moment we have about 3500 item blocks in Dol Amroth, with the planned changes I guess we can reduce to about 1000.

Today I make most necessary changes to the rp. But I still have to work on the custom inventory and check everything again. I'll be finished "soon".
What about the never used tudor blocks? Could those be changed into blocks that goes better with the red brick block and the red brick trim? (Hope you understand which blocks I mean cuz I don't have any pictures to clearify it right now)
Also, if we use up all the blocks for DA buildings then how are we supposed to ever merge the two gondor packs together?
 

Eriol_Eandur

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#34
Also, if we use up all the blocks for DA buildings then how are we supposed to ever merge the two gondor packs together?
We did not remove any textrures used in old Gondor pack. Many textures were moved to new blocks as to make the texture packs more similar to each other (URPS project). Once the Gondor2 rp is finished we will make it the rp of all Gondor. This will require a lot of block replacements, but most will be done by plugin.
What about the never used tudor blocks? Could those be changed into blocks that goes better with the red brick block and the red brick trim? (Hope you understand which blocks I mean cuz I don't have any pictures to clearify it right now)
I think we could replace them, but that needs to be approved by @Finrod_Amandil. Also it may be a good idea to leave them for now. We might want to use them for some other textures when switching all of Gondor to the Gondor2 rp. Anyway we still have some other free full blocks, that can be used. Currently I'm adding an additional corner stone with red bricks and damaged stucco blocks for pink and light blue stucco.
So if you need any more (full) blocks, just say it here. I can probably find a place for a few more (no place for an iron bar trapdoor, sorry @Patrick_0901).
 

Eriol_Eandur

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#35
Here is a quick preview of how Dol Amroth will look like with the updated rp:

Prepare for block replacement jobs :D
 

RubenPieterMark

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#36
I think this is the main project thread for Dol Amroth so I'll just leave this little essay here.
Aight I had a fiery conversation with coleader @Kjolsen about signs which didn't really sum up anything so decided to make a forum post instead. The quote it's all about is from the Lord of the Rings appendices:
In the days of the Númenorean kings this ennobled Westron speech spread far and wide, even among their enemies; and it became used more and more by the Dúnedain themselves, so that at the time of the War of the Ring the Elven-tongue was known to only a small part of the peoples of Gondor, and spoken daily by fewer. These dwelt mostly in Minas Tirith and the townlands adjacent, and in the land of the tributary princes of Dol Amroth. Yet the names of nearly all places and persons in the realm of Gondor were of Elvish form and meaning. A few were of forgotten origin, and descended doubtless from days before the ships of the Númenoreans sailed the Sea; among these were Umbar, Arnach and Erech; and the mountain-names Eilenach and Rimmon. Forlong was also a name of the same sort.
This is quite plane lore, means that almost all the people in Dol Amroth, maybe Minas Aduial (considering the Elvish-looking architecture), Minas Tirith and the Pelennor fields spoke Gondor Sindarin on a daily basis. Gondor Sindarin is a dialect of 'normal' Sindarin with some small changes.
The quotation also says that all the names in Gondor of people or places were still in Sindarin. Almost half of the warp names in our Gondor are still some Anglicized names, and almost all names or villages without a warp are English. I translated all English warp names to Sindarin tho, which @Finrod_Amandil will check and hopefully change on the server.
There are two other quotes concerning this topic and maybe contradicting my first thoughts:
2. Q[uenya] names of Kings, etc. Q. was known to the learned in Gondor at least as well as Latin still is in W. Europe. Its use was honorific, and there was no reason to accommodate the Q. names to Sindarin. And none of the Q. names in the lists (III 315-8-9) are accommodated: all are in form entirely suitable to Quenya. Q. permitted, indeed favoured, the 'dentals' n, l, r, s, t as final consonants: no other final consonants appear in the Q. lists. Angamaitë 'Iron-handed', and Sangahyando 'Throng* -cleaver', were good Q. but no more so than the other names, and there was no need to assert their royal descent, as that was clear. They were, however, possibly 'aggressive' in being personal warrior names (or nicknames), whereas the other (few) warlike Q. names, like Rómendacil, were 'political': assumed by a king in celebration of victories against a public enemy. 3. High-elvish and Sindarin. The mixture may seem curious to us, but it was entirely in accordance with the history of the First and Second Ages, briefly alluded to in III append. A 313-7. Also III 363. At the time of the L.R. (see III 106) Quenya had been a 'dead' [language] (sc. one not inherited in childhood, but learnt) for many centuries (act. about 6,000 years). The 'High-Elves' or exiled Noldor had, for reasons that the legend of their rebellion and exile from Valinor explains, at once adopted Sindarin, and even translated their Q. names into S. or adapted them. Galadriel though beautiful & noble enough in form is not a Q. name, any more than Gil-galad, which contains the S. word galad; and Celeborn is a transi, of the orig. name Telporno; though said to be a kinsman of King Elu Thingol he was so only afar off, for he too came from Valinor.
It may be noted that at the end of the Third Age there were probably more people (Men) that knew Quenya, or spoke Sindarin, than there were Elves who did either! Though dwindling, the population of Minas Tirith and its fiefs must have been much greater than that of Lindon, Rivendell, and Lórien. In Gondor the generally used language was 'Westron', a language about as mixed as modern English, but basically derived from the native language of the Númenóreans ; but Sindarin was an acquired polite language and used by those of more pure Númenórean descent, especially in Minas Tirith, if they wished to be polite (as in the cry Ernil i Pheriannath III 41 cf. 231, and Master Perian 160).
Narsil is a name composed of 2 basic stems without variation or adjuncts: √NAR 'fire', & √THIL 'white light'. It thus symbolised the chief heavenly lights, as enemies of darkness, Sun (Anar) and Moon (in Q) Isil. * Andúril means Flame of the West (as a region) not of the Sunset.
So this kinda contradicts the quote in the appendices -in a way- which would override quotes from Tolkien's letters however.
It doesn't mention Dol Amroth, he just says especially in Minas Tirith.

The question/suggestion: please change at least some signs in Dol Amroth to Sindarin and change all names of people to Sindarin. I have seen French names like Bourgains and names closely resembling player names. I am very much willing to translate a bunch of names to Sindarin and I think some others like Smaug would be too. It would imo really add to the Elven influence DA should have, if there were some signs in Gondor Sindarin, and just to a bit mystique for those who don't know lore.

Side-note, the Tolkien Gateway page of Gondor Sindarin is sort of wrong, it says that Sindarin was only learned by nobility, but this goes for Quenya. Sindarin was spoken by many people, really not just nobility.
If you got till here kudos for reading this chunk of text
 

Kjolsen

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#37
I think this is the main project thread for Dol Amroth so I'll just leave this little essay here.
Aight I had a fiery conversation with coleader @Kjolsen about signs which didn't really sum up anything so decided to make a forum post instead. The quote it's all about is from the Lord of the Rings appendices:
In the days of the Númenorean kings this ennobled Westron speech spread far and wide, even among their enemies; and it became used more and more by the Dúnedain themselves, so that at the time of the War of the Ring the Elven-tongue was known to only a small part of the peoples of Gondor, and spoken daily by fewer. These dwelt mostly in Minas Tirith and the townlands adjacent, and in the land of the tributary princes of Dol Amroth. Yet the names of nearly all places and persons in the realm of Gondor were of Elvish form and meaning. A few were of forgotten origin, and descended doubtless from days before the ships of the Númenoreans sailed the Sea; among these were Umbar, Arnach and Erech; and the mountain-names Eilenach and Rimmon. Forlong was also a name of the same sort.
This is quite plane lore, means that almost all the people in Dol Amroth, maybe Minas Aduial (considering the Elvish-looking architecture), Minas Tirith and the Pelennor fields spoke Gondor Sindarin on a daily basis. Gondor Sindarin is a dialect of 'normal' Sindarin with some small changes.
The quotation also says that all the names in Gondor of people or places were still in Sindarin. Almost half of the warp names in our Gondor are still some Anglicized names, and almost all names or villages without a warp are English. I translated all English warp names to Sindarin tho, which @Finrod_Amandil will check and hopefully change on the server.
There are two other quotes concerning this topic and maybe contradicting my first thoughts:
2. Q[uenya] names of Kings, etc. Q. was known to the learned in Gondor at least as well as Latin still is in W. Europe. Its use was honorific, and there was no reason to accommodate the Q. names to Sindarin. And none of the Q. names in the lists (III 315-8-9) are accommodated: all are in form entirely suitable to Quenya. Q. permitted, indeed favoured, the 'dentals' n, l, r, s, t as final consonants: no other final consonants appear in the Q. lists. Angamaitë 'Iron-handed', and Sangahyando 'Throng* -cleaver', were good Q. but no more so than the other names, and there was no need to assert their royal descent, as that was clear. They were, however, possibly 'aggressive' in being personal warrior names (or nicknames), whereas the other (few) warlike Q. names, like Rómendacil, were 'political': assumed by a king in celebration of victories against a public enemy. 3. High-elvish and Sindarin. The mixture may seem curious to us, but it was entirely in accordance with the history of the First and Second Ages, briefly alluded to in III append. A 313-7. Also III 363. At the time of the L.R. (see III 106) Quenya had been a 'dead' [language] (sc. one not inherited in childhood, but learnt) for many centuries (act. about 6,000 years). The 'High-Elves' or exiled Noldor had, for reasons that the legend of their rebellion and exile from Valinor explains, at once adopted Sindarin, and even translated their Q. names into S. or adapted them. Galadriel though beautiful & noble enough in form is not a Q. name, any more than Gil-galad, which contains the S. word galad; and Celeborn is a transi, of the orig. name Telporno; though said to be a kinsman of King Elu Thingol he was so only afar off, for he too came from Valinor.
It may be noted that at the end of the Third Age there were probably more people (Men) that knew Quenya, or spoke Sindarin, than there were Elves who did either! Though dwindling, the population of Minas Tirith and its fiefs must have been much greater than that of Lindon, Rivendell, and Lórien. In Gondor the generally used language was 'Westron', a language about as mixed as modern English, but basically derived from the native language of the Númenóreans ; but Sindarin was an acquired polite language and used by those of more pure Númenórean descent, especially in Minas Tirith, if they wished to be polite (as in the cry Ernil i Pheriannath III 41 cf. 231, and Master Perian 160).
Narsil is a name composed of 2 basic stems without variation or adjuncts: √NAR 'fire', & √THIL 'white light'. It thus symbolised the chief heavenly lights, as enemies of darkness, Sun (Anar) and Moon (in Q) Isil. * Andúril means Flame of the West (as a region) not of the Sunset.
So this kinda contradicts the quote in the appendices -in a way- which would override quotes from Tolkien's letters however.
It doesn't mention Dol Amroth, he just says especially in Minas Tirith.

The question/suggestion: please change at least some signs in Dol Amroth to Sindarin and change all names of people to Sindarin. I have seen French names like Bourgains and names closely resembling player names. I am very much willing to translate a bunch of names to Sindarin and I think some others like Smaug would be too. It would imo really add to the Elven influence DA should have, if there were some signs in Gondor Sindarin, and just to a bit mystique for those who don't know lore.

Side-note, the Tolkien Gateway page of Gondor Sindarin is sort of wrong, it says that Sindarin was only learned by nobility, but this goes for Quenya. Sindarin was spoken by many people, really not just nobility.
If you got till here kudos for reading this chunk of text
Yes, we had a "fiery" conversation, where you left an unacceptable statement about me as a person before you left the server. No, I am not co-leader of the Dol Amroth project, which I have never said. I am just a very active project-staff, and I have alot to say in decisions being made.

I believe warps / names in Gondor should be in commonspeech, as it has since Gondor was started on. It has been agreed on, and I can say that I have quite many staff members behind me when I say that we should have the warps/names in common speech.
I really like that everything should be totally correct to the lore as possible, but only to a certain level. Changing all names / warps in gondor to Sindarin would make new players so confused. I would be confused. Most people have seen only the movie, and never even read the books or the appendixes. Everybody knows english, very few interested ones know sindarin. It is much easier to deal with english names/warps than sindarin warps. I believe that is why we decided to have warps in common speech in the first place.
 
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Eriol_Eandur

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#38
@RubenPieterMark I undererstand the quote from the Appendix F in another way than you. The first sentence sais that only a very small part of the men of Gondor spoke Sindarin on a daily base. Most of them lived in and around Minas Tirith and Dol Amroth. For me this doesn't mean that almost all people in these areas spoke Sindarin daily, but only in these areas some people spoke Sindarin daily. All people in and around Minas Tirith and Dol Amroth would not be a small part of the people of Gondor.
However this is not too important to me. Imo professions and house purposes on signs in Dol Amroth should be in English (Westron) for one reason: To not confuse players too much.
About person names the quote is very clear, they should be in Sindarin form. And I don't see a reason against using Sindarin forms here. We all are very used to names whose meaning is not understandable to us, it's like that with most modern names too. Btw I heared a Dol Amroth sign revamp is already planned.
All place names in Gondor from LotR are in Sindarin (or pre-numenorean languages like Erech, Eilenach,....) and the Appendix F is very clear about them too. Also we use all these names in our warps. We could translate most of the other place names into Sindarin, they are usually not too creative (Langdale, Ironmere,...). So player who doesn't know Sindarin will probably not miss to much info. But @Kjolsen got another important point here. I saw many new player spell "Minas Tirith" wrong, that's the problem with unknown languages. It's much harder to type correctly. And for a warp thats an imporant point. Warping to an English named place is probably more convenient to most players. So my opinion about this is to keep what we have, the names from the books and some more in Sindarin and others in English.
 

ryttyr

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#39
I have a suggestion, how about we have English warps and Sindarin names (like signs which says Welcome to... have the name in Sindarin)
 

BWOT

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#40
But then you have new comers warping to a place and never finding it.