Fortifications along the Anduin

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RubenPieterMark

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#1
How long have you been on the server?
6 months
What is your current rank?
Purple
Who have you contacted to help you out with this project?
@robz and @samgamgee10
Have you been part in any projects before? If yes elaborate what you did:
Is the project on the list of available projects?

I have of course done a l0t of jobs for many projects, but the biggest 'projects' I have yet led are finishing up a big Anfalas village and finishing Marble Hill.
In what amount of time do you think this project will get done (rough guess)?
4 weeks

Fortifications along the Anduin

Project leader: @me
Reserve leaders: @samgamgee10 and @robz
Project staff: none yet, but I have discussed very much with @Eriol_Eandur

Background lore

'In T.A. 1248 Minalcar, regent to King Narmacil I, defeated the Easterlings and upon his return fortified the west bank of the Anduin up to the Limlight, which may have included the fortification of Cair Andros.' (LotR appendix A)
And the fortifications were built by the same man as who built the Argonath.


Short Introduction to the project

The plan is to have some watchtowers, fortified walls and two small castle at the Undeeps (North Undeep and South Undeep), both two undeep places of the Anduin which were multiple times crossed in history by an alien army. That's why it should be well defended. The North Undeep was a bigger bend than the South Undeep and should be better defended. I am also planning on having one or two ruins of stone houses around the watchtowers, for storage of food and armor and residence and at other places, single guard houses. I am not sure though, if there should be beacons.

Dynamap screenshot with mapped out plan


I also made a model map of the region with a legend -in minecraft-, in my and rob's plot: /plot warp Fortplanning 1

Concept art

Imgur 1
Imgur 2

<Detailed structured plan of the project preferably in stage's>

<Possible Adventurer jobs that can be run in said project>

<FAQ section for public forum>[/B]
 
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Kjolsen

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#2
You have a great plan going on here, @P1eter. Keep on the good work!

However, as I've discussed with you earlier, I am not fond of the idea having beacons along Anduin.

As far as i know, the only beacons that existed in Gondor (accoring to the lore) goes from Rohan, and stretches all the way, through South Gondor, to near Dol Amroth (Belfalas).

Have a look at this:
" The warning beacons of Gondor were a very old tradition that even pre-dated the existence of Rohan. There are two strings of beacons - the one in the north and another in the south. Originally they were meant to warn one part of Gondor about danger in another (for example, Calenardhon - today Rohan - could alert Southern Gondor that they were under attack, or vice versa. When Cirion gave Calenardhon to Eorl, and it became Rohan, the northern beacons were no longer a domestic warning system, but an international one. "

Picture that shows all the beacons that ever existed in Gondor:

1331276a472b68fea11815aa209a070a.png

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Looking forward to see the progress of this plan, and if it might gets approved!

- Kjolsen
 

samgamgee10

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#3
Ye probably no beacons, but i guess the walls could be about in the state of either that one wall on the north side of the barrow downs, or the Rammas Echor
 

Tyranystrasz

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#4
I would leave the area that starts from the entwash's delta to the north.
Why? all the area needs to be revamp (terrain) also the emyn muil will need a revamp.
So @Finrod_Amandil if you are going to accept this project I gently ask you to wait until we implement Mordor, and until me @Eriol_Eandur (and the others who will be working on the terrain after the Mordor implementation) have finished to revamp the terrain in the area.
 

Ardelenia

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#5
@P1eter two things for you
Unfinished Tales, "The History of Galadriel and Celeborn", Appendix C
The effective bounds of the kingdom of Gondor in the north (west of Anduin) was the river Limlight. ... In later days Gondor build a bridge over the upper Limlight, and often occupied the narrow land between the lower Limlight and Anduin as part of its eastern defences...
So perhaps extend a road from your last fort to a (ruined) bridge a little further upstream on the Limlight, and then a road coming back to a few more towers or whatever? I recall we had these bridge/s and towers on the old map.

Also in Unfinished Tales, "Cirion and Eorl", it is implied that the fortifications along the Anduin, around the Undeeps especially, were occupied and maybe even restored a little around the time of Rohan's founding. This may or may not influence the degree to which structures are ruined. idk.

Part of me is quite sure Unfinished Tales has more regarding these fortifications, so you may want to skim through it if you have it, or look on the interwebs for other info.
 

RubenPieterMark

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#6
You have a great plan going on here, @P1eter. Keep on the good work!

However, as I've discussed with you earlier, I am not fond of the idea having beacons along Anduin.

As far as i know, the only beacons that existed in Gondor (accoring to the lore) goes from Rohan, and stretches all the way, through South Gondor, to near Dol Amroth (Belfalas).

Have a look at this:
" The warning beacons of Gondor were a very old tradition that even pre-dated the existence of Rohan. There are two strings of beacons - the one in the north and another in the south. Originally they were meant to warn one part of Gondor about danger in another (for example, Calenardhon - today Rohan - could alert Southern Gondor that they were under attack, or vice versa. When Cirion gave Calenardhon to Eorl, and it became Rohan, the northern beacons were no longer a domestic warning system, but an international one. "

Picture that shows all the beacons that ever existed in Gondor:

View attachment 7770

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Looking forward to see the progress of this plan, and if it might gets approved!

- Kjolsen
Yep, as you might know, I am not planning at having beacons, but I wanted to discuss it a bit. I prefer the idea of having a guardhouse every 5 miles with a stable for 1 or 2 horses, for messengers, but they can of course also be used for the fighting. Only problem is, it would not be easy to cross the new across the delta of the Entwash. Perhaps a dovecote on both sides of the Entwash? Or if there would be a better, faster way, please tell me.
 

Kjolsen

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#7
Yep, as you might know, I am not planning at having beacons, but I wanted to discuss it a bit.
Well. On your in-game plan on the project, there are detailed placed beacons there.

But yah - entwash could might be a problem. + perhaps you should have @Tyranystrasz 's message in mind. But it's finally up to HeadDesigner if its going to be approved or not, and when - i assume.
 
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Eriol_Eandur

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#8
Nice map @P1eter. Here my thought about this project:

First:

I have a few details about it: The northern and southern undeeps are at the westward bends of River Anduin: Directly at the mouth of River Limlight and at your southern Keep (yellow dot). Would make sense to move the northern keep to the northern undeep I would say.
Unfinished Tales - PART TWO: THE SECOND AGE - IV THE HISTORY OF GALADRIEL AND CELEBORN - Appendix C: The borders of Lórien said:
... the effective bounds of the kingdom of Gondor in the north (west of Anduin) was the river Limlight. .... In later days Gondor built a bridge over the upper Limlight, and often occupied the narrow land between the lower Limlight and Anduin as part of its eastern fences, since .the great loops of the Anduin (where it came down swiftly past Lórien and entered low flat lands before its descent again into the chasm of the Emyn Muil) had many shallows and wide shoals over which a determined and well-equipped enemy could force a crossing by rafts or pontoons, especially in the two westward bends, known as the North and South Undeeps. It was to this land that the name Parth Celebrant was applied in Gondor; hence its use in defining the ancient northern boundary. In the time of the War of the Ring, when all the land north of the White Mountains (save Anórien) as far as the Limlight had become part of the Kingdom of Rohan, the name Parth (Field of) Celebrant was only used of the great battle in which Eorl the Young destroyed the invaders of Gondor
Also the brown lands were north of the mouth of River Limlight directly at the eastern shore of the Anduin. The fellowship passed them before they came to the wold.
The Fellowship of the Ring - The Great River said:
... The Brown Lands rose into bleak wolds, over which flowed a chill air from the East. On the other side the meads had become rolling downs of withered grass amidst a land of fen and tussock.
Second:
My main point I don't agree with are the walls. You planned a walls at least 300 miles long!! This is a tremendous building both in Middle-earth and at MCME. If you want to build that wall, your procect will not last 4 week but 8 months. But more important to me is, that such a great structure should be mentioned in the lore more pronounced. All I found additional to your finding about the construction of the fortifications by Minalcar are these quotes:
Unfinished Tales - PART THREE: THE THIRD AGE - II CIRION AND EORL - (i) The Northmen and the Wainriders said:
News of the oncoming of the enemy reached Pelargir on the ninth day of Cermië in the year 1944. ... (At that time the forts upon the line of the Anduin north of Sarn Gebir that had been built by Narmacil I were still in repair and manned by sufficient soldiers from Calenardhon to prevent any attempt of an enemy to cross the river at the Undeeps.)
Unfinished Tales - PART THREE: THE THIRD AGE - II CIRION AND EORL - (ii) The ride of Eorl said:
... But during the Watchful Peace (2063-2460 T.A.) the forts along the Anduin, especially on the west shore of the Undeeps, had been unmanned and neglected. After that time Condor was assailed both by Orcs out of Mordor (which had long been unguarded) and by the Corsairs of Umbar, and had neither men nor opportunity for manning the line of Anduin north of the Emyn Muil.
It seems to me that the fortifications were a line of keeps and watchtowers instead of a wall. This would be far less work and even more effective in a militay sense. Even at the roman limes in germany (which was such a long wall) the line of forts were more important than the wall itself. The reason is that you would need too many soldiers to defend such a wall. You can put guards ofc, but in the case of a sudden attack you will not be able to send enforcements before the wall is taken. At least it was like that at the roman limes. The wall was taken quite often by raiders but attacks were then pushed back by soldiers from the next forts. The wall was just to hold off the attackers for a short time for the soldiers at the forts to prepare. But this function is not needed at the Anduin border as the crossing of the river takes a while, even at the undeeps and especially for a large host.

Third:
Also such fortifications are only mentioned between River Limlight and Sarn Gebir. There is no lore about fortifications south of Rauros. Enemies never tried to cross the Anduin there except at Cair Andros and Osgiliath. From the description of Frodo's and Sam's path through Emyn Muil it is almost impassable for large hosts same for the large swamps south of Emyn Muil (Nindalf and Mouth of Entwash).
I don't see a reason for fortifications or even guard towers there because there is no change for a large attack and small raids would not be worth the effort.
South of Nindalf the realm of Gondor extended for long on both sides of the stream. Ithilien was abandoned by most people during the reign of Turin II (2882-2914) around the birth of Bilbo (2890) at this time Cair Andros was fortified. Sauron rentered Mordor and rebuild Barad-dur 2951 T.A. Saurons first open attack on Gondor started in June 3018 T.A (17 years AFTER Bilbo's 111th birthday).
Fellowship of the Ring - The Council of Elrond said:
[Boromir] 'But this very year, in the days of June, sudden war came upon us out of Mordor, and we were swept away.'
So in my opinion fortifications and watchtowers doen't make sense south Cair Andros as there were the rangers of Ithilien on guard at places like Henneth Annun.


Overall:
I think keeps and watchtowers between River Limlight and San Gebir or Argonath are a good project and I will be happily support it as project staff, but...

The valley of River Anduin is quite old terrain. As @Tyran said, we want to redo the Emyn Muil and I would even like to go further up the Anduin at least to Lothlorien or even the Gladden Fields. The Fellowship of the Ring went down on the River and thus it is a major place in my eyes. There are some nice descriptions in the book I would like to realise at our map. Good example are the Northern and Southern Undeeps. This will change the terrain quite a lot and I would prefere to do it before the fortifications are built. But I don't want to start with that until Gondor is finished and this is still quite far away.


Also in Unfinished Tales, "Cirion and Eorl", it is implied that the fortifications along the Anduin, around the Undeeps especially, were occupied and maybe even restored a little around the time of Rohan's founding. This may or may not influence the degree to which structures are ruined. idk.
I haven't found anything about the fortifications were occupied again during the time of Rohans founding. My quote above even said that Gondor had no men to occupy them again and the Riders of Eorl don't seem to be people who would rebuild and occupy fortifications. The tactic I described before (attacking invaders with quick reaction forced) would be much more of their liking and it was still their tactic when the Orcs with Merry and Pippin invaded Rohan. Eomer told Aragorn that he had quick scouts who brought a message about the invading orcs.
In my opinion all these fortifications are abandoned and given to decay for about 1000 years. So everything should be heavily ruined and overgrown. Tbh almost nothing should be left visible after 1000 years. But that argument would apply to Fornost, which as abandoned at the same, too. So I would not take this too serious and use Fornost for example instead.
[/SIZE]
 

Daddlio

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#9
Nice map @P1eter. Here my thought about this project:

First:

I have a few details about it: The northern and southern undeeps are at the westward bends of River Anduin: Directly at the mouth of River Limlight and at your southern Keep (yellow dot). Would make sense to move the northern keep to the northern undeep I would say.

Also the brown lands were north of the mouth of River Limlight directly at the eastern shore of the Anduin. The fellowship passed them before they came to the wold.


Second:
My main point I don't agree with are the walls. You planned a walls at least 300 miles long!! This is a tremendous building both in Middle-earth and at MCME. If you want to build that wall, your procect will not last 4 week but 8 months. But more important to me is, that such a great structure should be mentioned in the lore more pronounced. All I found additional to your finding about the construction of the fortifications by Minalcar are these quotes:


It seems to me that the fortifications were a line of keeps and watchtowers instead of a wall. This would be far less work and even more effective in a militay sense. Even at the roman limes in germany (which was such a long wall) the line of forts were more important than the wall itself. The reason is that you would need too many soldiers to defend such a wall. You can put guards ofc, but in the case of a sudden attack you will not be able to send enforcements before the wall is taken. At least it was like that at the roman limes. The wall was taken quite often by raiders but attacks were then pushed back by soldiers from the next forts. The wall was just to hold off the attackers for a short time for the soldiers at the forts to prepare. But this function is not needed at the Anduin border as the crossing of the river takes a while, even at the undeeps and especially for a large host.

Third:
Also such fortifications are only mentioned between River Limlight and Sarn Gebir. There is no lore about fortifications south of Rauros. Enemies never tried to cross the Anduin there except at Cair Andros and Osgiliath. From the description of Frodo's and Sam's path through Emyn Muil it is almost impassable for large hosts same for the large swamps south of Emyn Muil (Nindalf and Mouth of Entwash).
I don't see a reason for fortifications or even guard towers there because there is no change for a large attack and small raids would not be worth the effort.
South of Nindalf the realm of Gondor extended for long on both sides of the stream. Ithilien was abandoned by most people during the reign of Turin II (2882-2914) around the birth of Bilbo (2890) at this time Cair Andros was fortified. Sauron rentered Mordor and rebuild Barad-dur 2951 T.A. Saurons first open attack on Gondor started in June 3018 T.A (17 years AFTER Bilbo's 111th birthday).

So in my opinion fortifications and watchtowers doen't make sense south Cair Andros as there were the rangers of Ithilien on guard at places like Henneth Annun.


Overall:
I think keeps and watchtowers between River Limlight and San Gebir or Argonath are a good project and I will be happily support it as project staff, but...

The valley of River Anduin is quite old terrain. As @Tyran said, we want to redo the Emyn Muil and I would even like to go further up the Anduin at least to Lothlorien or even the Gladden Fields. The Fellowship of the Ring went down on the River and thus it is a major place in my eyes. There are some nice descriptions in the book I would like to realise at our map. Good example are the Northern and Southern Undeeps. This will change the terrain quite a lot and I would prefere to do it before the fortifications are built. But I don't want to start with that until Gondor is finished and this is still quite far away.



I haven't found anything about the fortifications were occupied again during the time of Rohans founding. My quote above even said that Gondor had no men to occupy them again and the Riders of Eorl don't seem to be people who would rebuild and occupy fortifications. The tactic I described before (attacking invaders with quick reaction forced) would be much more of their liking and it was still their tactic when the Orcs with Merry and Pippin invaded Rohan. Eomer told Aragorn that he had quick scouts who brought a message about the invading orcs.
In my opinion all these fortifications are abandoned and given to decay for about 1000 years. So everything should be heavily ruined and overgrown. Tbh almost nothing should be left visible after 1000 years. But that argument would apply to Fornost, which as abandoned at the same, too. So I would not take this too serious and use Fornost for example instead.
[/SIZE]
i just gotta love u for all the deep thinking u put even in the smallest details! o_O
 

_Luk

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#10
Just as @Tyranystrasz stated, you guys are planning on working around pretty much untouched terrain, I am not sure if that is a good idea, since yes, most of the terrain needs a revamp, and is mostly directly from WP.
 

RubenPieterMark

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#11
How about me doing the terrain by myself with the basic edition of WorldMachine? I think I can learn the tricks quite well, by taking some inspiration of Google Earth 3D maps :p and stuff. The download page does say, it is not allowed to use the basic edition of WorldMachine for commercial purposes. Is MCME a commercial purpose? I don't think so, because we don't make any money, right?
 

yomama629

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#12
How about me doing the terrain by myself with the basic edition of WorldMachine? I think I can learn the tricks quite well, by taking some inspiration of Google Earth 3D maps :p and stuff. The download page does say, it is not allowed to use the basic edition of WorldMachine for commercial purposes. Is MCME a commercial purpose? I don't think so, because we don't make any money, right?
You have my blessings, not that they're worth much but I love seeing this kind of motivation and involvement from members of the community. Keep up the good work fam
 

Eriol_Eandur

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#13
MCME is not commercial ofc. But that is not the problem, learning to make good terrain with worldmashine is hard. @Tyranystrasz is working on it for quite a long time now.

Maybe it is possible to do with worldmashine. But will be hard to fit into exsiting terrain as you can replace full map files only. I have in mind to try myself :p
 

RubenPieterMark

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#14
MCME is not commercial ofc. But that is not the problem, learning to make good terrain with worldmashine is hard. @Tyranystrasz is working on it for quite a long time now.

Maybe it is possible to do with worldmashine. But will be hard to fit into exsiting terrain as you can replace full map files only. I have in mind to try myself :p
Can I at least give a try? I have real good feelings
 

Ardelenia

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#17
Nice map @P1eterI haven't found anything about the fortifications were occupied again during the time of Rohans founding. My quote above even said that Gondor had no men to occupy them again and the Riders of Eorl don't seem to be people who would rebuild and occupy fortifications.
[/SIZE]
The quote I was referencing is:
"But the main force shall remain in the North-east to guard above all the place where the Balchoth made a crossing of the Anduin out of the Brown lands; for there is still the greatest danger, and there also is my chief hope, if I return, of leading my people into their new land with as little grief and loss as may be." (Eorl speaking)​
I interpreted this to mean that he would send troops to occupy the forts, but perhaps it was more just camping by the crossing points.

@P1eter if you should end up building any wall, what is your justification for having some wall "arrowslitted" and some not?
 

RubenPieterMark

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#18
I am also working on a 3D model of birch boat, to be able to roleplay even better in the Anduin. It looks very much like the boats Galadriel gave to the fellowship. I just need to resize and convert them. I hope you guys will like it so that they might even be added to the textured packs.
 

RubenPieterMark

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#19
The quote I was referencing is:
"But the main force shall remain in the North-east to guard above all the place where the Balchoth made a crossing of the Anduin out of the Brown lands; for there is still the greatest danger, and there also is my chief hope, if I return, of leading my people into their new land with as little grief and loss as may be." (Eorl speaking)​
I interpreted this to mean that he would send troops to occupy the forts, but perhaps it was more just camping by the crossing points.

@P1eter if you should end up building any wall, what is your justification for having some wall "arrowslitted" and some not?
Have you seen my concepts in the links? Arrowslitted walls are much more defensive and normal walls would look like about twice as high and thick farmwalls. But as Eriol pointed out, walls would not be used nearly as much as I planned out on the map, but rather watchtowers.