Inconsistencies between the buildserver and the books

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ryttyr

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#1
I Just finished reading the chapter Fog on the Barrow Downs in The Fellowship of the Ring and the path they take there does not line up with the path laid out on the server, the landmarks they pass are all there on the server in approximately the right places but the path itself takes a completely different route.

In the book they say farewell to Goldberry at the crest of the hill/ridge behind Bombadil's house but after that the paths divert from each other. In the book they travel down the east side of that hill and then proceed to travel northwards along the western edge of the Barrow Downs till they reach a tall standing stone from where they can see the northern edge of the Barrow Downs. Here they eat their lunch on the west side of the standing stone and accidentally falls asleep. When they wake the fog has rolled in but they continue to head north towards what Frodo thinks is the gate out of the Barrow Downs but it turns out to just be a pair of leaning standing stones. When he passes under the first of these stones his pony panics and flees at which point Frodo realizes his friends are gone. He believes he can hear them calling out for help east of him so he hurries that way but gets lost in the fog till he reaches a steep hill tall enough to peak above the fog so he can see the stars but he only have time to realize that he climbed the hill from the north side before a wraith takes him and brings him to his barrow.

Whilst on the server their path goes south from the point where they said farewell to Goldberry to the very top of the hill behind Bombadil's house from which it heads due east for quite a while till it reaches a standing stone which it circles and starts heading southeast till it reaches a small burial mound which it rounds on the south side. Then it bends around in a counter-clockwise half circle and reaches the wraith's barrow from the south/southeast side.

Now like I said, all the landmarks are there on the server: the standing stone where they fell asleep, the leaning stones Frodo thought was a gate and the tall steep hill he climbed. They're all there in the right place but the path goes it's own way it seems. Maybe someone should fix that? or at least look into it?
 
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TI_020601

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#2
Rytt, know this part if the books quote well, you know that and I've thought about this before but I've come to the conclusion that it's both an issue with scale and impossible to exactly replicate a vaguely described path. Very little of the fellowships path on the server if that is 100% accurate to the books and really it doesn't need to so long as you get to Mordor at the end it's fine.
 

ryttyr

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#3
Rytt, know this part if the books quote well, you know that and I've thought about this before but I've come to the conclusion that it's both an issue with scale and impossible to exactly replicate a vaguely described path. Very little of the fellowships path on the server if that is 100% accurate to the books and really it doesn't need to so long as you get to Mordor at the end it's fine.
Up until they're taken by the wrights their path through the Downs is actually fairly well explained especially in terms of directions.
The landmarks they pass are all there on the server in the right places and scales. It's just the footprints that take a COMPLETELY different way. So all that needs to be done to make it much much more book accurate is to make the path go past the landmarks they pass in the book which, as I mentioned, already exists on the server.
 

TI_020601

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#4
Also very little is likely to change in eriador due to the other more important projects and the fact this would lead to other changes that would pull focus away from the bigger projects.
 

Eriol_Eandur

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#5
Changing just the footprints is not a big thing. It's very little work so it would not affect other projects.

I would suggest @ryttyr make a map where you want to place the footprints. Post it here so other can check and tell their opinions.

After some time for discussions and eventually improvements of the plan ask @Finrod_Amandil for his ok and there you go.

Edit:
Btw this forum is for suggestions to developers about plugins ;)
 

ryttyr

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#6
Changing just the footprints is not a big thing. It's very little work so it would not affect other projects.

I would suggest @ryttyr make a map where you want to place the footprints. Post it here so other can check and tell their opinions.

After some time for discussions and eventually improvements of the plan ask @Finrod_Amandil for his ok and there you go.

Edit:
Btw this forum is for suggestions to developers about plugins ;)
Ok. I have no idea how to do the map thing.. unless... a screenshot of the dynmap might work...

Sorry. I didn't know that. Where should a thread like this go then?
 

Eriol_Eandur

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#7
I think Middle-earth - Discussions is good :D

A screenshot of the dynmap will do well.
 

ryttyr

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#10
Here's the map I drew:
Barrow Downs Map.png

Purple: The current path through the Barrow Downs drawn as well as I possibly could. (I essentially turned the footprints into a massive game of connect the dots)

Light Green: The path I took on the server whilst following the path of Frodo described in the book as closely as possible (and between point 2 and 4 I also had fog turned up to max and render distance turned down to minimum whilst trying to go the right way to get a realistic route)

Yellow: The path I think the barrow wright would have taken from the hill to his barrow on the server (this path is completely omitted in the book)

Green: An alternate path I thought of afterwards, dependent on where on the server you imagine they said farewell to Goldberry. It follows the current path until it splits of. The advantage of this path is that it is far closer to the book in terms of direction (going much straighter north) and relative distance (being the major part of their trek through the Downs) but with the downside of that bend the current path makes up to the hilltop being way out of scale with everything else.

0. My starting point, right at the footprint in the gap of Bobadil's back wall.
1. The place where I imagine they said farewell to Goldberry.
2. The standing stone by which they ate lunch and fell asleep.
3. The "gate" where Frodo falls of his pony and starts looking for his friends on foot.
4. The place where Frodo was taken by the barrow wright.
5. The Barrow into which Frodo and co. were taken. From here on out the current path continues to follow the book again.
6. The alternate path I added as an afterthought.
 
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ryttyr

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#11
@Finrod_Amandil @DynoDaring
I've posted the map now.
The more I think about it the more I like the alternate path. Whilst the trip up the hill behind Bombadil's house is far from to-scale it makes the rest of my path follow the book more accurately.
 

Eriol_Eandur

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#12
I read the book chapter again and here are my thoughts:

My first thought is that this area really needs to be rebuild. The terrain is described with a lot of detail in the book, but our Barrow Downs are mainly vanilla terrain. Same for the mounds which are described as green hills on top of the downs. "and all those hills were crowned with green mounds". This too is very different at the server. But doing this would be quite a large project with a lot of terraforming. I want to do this at some point but not short-term for sure (I'd say when Mordor is finished :p)

Now about our plan:
  • I agree with the place where you located the lunch break. The Hobbits wanted to avoid the Barrow Down as much as possible and Tom Bombadil adviced them to head north not east. So this places is much more reasonable than the standing stone at the current path far in the east.
  • I don't agree about the place where Frodo fell off his pony. At noon they saw a gap between two steep hills at the northern end of a long valley and beyond the end of the Downs. When they awoke they tried to reach that place. Maybe the Hobbits already lost direction in the fog before they came to that place and went more east than north. For when they thought that they reached that place there were these two broken stones which were not at the gap when they watched out at noon.
    Your place is at the top of a hill but Frodo started to cimb up a steep hill after he fell from his pony. Also there is not a gate of two stones but a circle of stone with a pillar in the middle. I would suggest to relocate the place a bit to the east in the valley between place 3 and 4 and a bit to the north.
  • I like your place where Frodo was taken. The path leads there heading south as in the book and it's at a hilltop. My main problem is the long distance the barrow-wight carried the Hobbits to his mound. In the book there is a large mound at this hill where Frodo is taken and it is west of Frodo (something Tom Bombadil warned them of). Also the next day the Hobbits came to that gap with Tom Bombadil which they saw from the place of their lunch-break the day before (and the stones were gone again).
    So my suggestion is to relocate the barrow where the Hobbits where kept. There is one at the east side of the hill where you marked the place 4. I don't see a problem to continue the footprints from there northwards to the Great East Road. There is even a gap in the wall as described in the book.
upload_2017-6-14_22-19-21.png
 
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ryttyr

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#13
I read the book chapter again and here are my thoughts:

My first thought is that this area really needs to be rebuild. The terrain is described with a lot of detail in the book, but our Barrow Downs are mainly vanilla terrain. Same for the mounds which are described as green hills on top of the downs. "and all those hills were crowned with green mounds". This too is very different at the server. But doing this would be quite a large project with a lot of terraforming. I want to do this at some point but not short-term for sure (I'd say when Mordor is finished :p)

Now about our plan:
  • I agree with the place where you located the lunch break. The Hobbits wanted to avoid the Barrow Down as much as possible and Tom Bombadil adviced them to head north not east. So this places is much more reasonable than the standing stone at the current path far in the east.
  • I don't agree about the place where Frodo fell off his pony. At noon they saw a gap between two steep hills at the northern end of a long valley and beyond the end of the Downs. When they awoke they tried to reach that place. Maybe the Hobbits already lost direction in the fog before they came to that place and went more east than north. For when they thought that they reached that place there were these two broken stones which were not at the gap when they watched out at noon.
    Your place is at the top of a hill but Frodo started to cimb up a steep hill after he fell from his pony. Also there is not a gate of two stones but a circle of stone with a pillar in the middle. I would suggest to relocate the place a bit to the east in the valley between place 3 and 4 and a bit to the north.
  • I like you place where Frodo was taken. The path leads there heading south as in the book and it's at a hilltop. My main problem is the long distance the barrow-wight carried the Hobbits to his mound. In the book there is a large mound at this hill where Frodo is taken and it is west of Frodo (something Tom Bombadil warned them of). Also the next day the Hobbits came to that gap with Tom Bombadil which they saw from the place of their lunch-break the day before (and the stones were gone again).
    So my suggestion is to relocate the barrow where the Hobbits where kept. There is one at the east side of the hill where you marked the place 4. I don't see a problem to continue the footprints from there northwards to the Great East Road. There is even a gap in the wall as described in the book.
Yes. That's one solution as well.

Though, as you say, the Barrow Downs would have to be rebuilt or at least altered for your idea to work.
I tried to make a more accurate path without having it lead to a revamp because we don't have time for such a revamp in the present and should rather save it until we revamp all of Edoras (as I've heard meny people talk about wanting to do after Mordor).
 

Eriol_Eandur

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#14
No you misunderstood me. I want to redo Barrow Downs someday, yes.

But all I said about your plans is possible without rebuilding anything. Maybe we could add the two stones, but the barrow is already there. She map I posted is in my opinion the best and most accurate plan possible without changing terrain and builds.
 

ryttyr

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#15
No you misunderstood me. I want to redo Barrow Downs someday, yes.

But all I said about your plans is possible without rebuilding anything. Maybe we could add the two stones, but the barrow is already there. She map I posted is in my opinion the best and most accurate plan possible without changing terrain and builds.
So what you propose is that they more or less take the path that I suggested but that the wright takes them to the barrow at the foot of the hill instead of the barrow the path currently leads to?

Edit: I thake your like as a sign that I am correct in this understanding.
 
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TI_020601

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#17
*cough* You may need a new Tom Bombadil house I have one if you need it *cough*


Check it out in free build.
 

ryttyr

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#18
*cough* You may need a new Tom Bombadil house I have one if you need it *cough*


Check it out in free build.
Speaking of. I actually had some ideas of how to revamp Bombadil's house too after reading those chapters (though my ideas are just ideas for now. It would require a complete redo of both the house and some of the terrain around it). I like how his house is fairly well described yet there's still a lot of different ways to interpret it.