More ranks with world edit

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barteldvn

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#1
First of all I'm not creating this thread because I am complaining I'm just giving a suggestion and would like to know what others think about it and what the advantages and disadvantages would be.

So my suggestion is to give more ranks the abiltiy to use world edit. I think this could lead to more intersting buildings, where builders can be more creative and work much faster. For example I myself find working in Moria very intimidating when you get an empty stone square and have to make it into a hall of some sort.

I think if artists could get world edit (limited) this could also make them able to work much faster since they don't have to ask and wait for designers to help them. This might require a new evaluation of the current artists to see if they're all resposible enough for this permission.

To be clear I'd also suggest having clear limits on it's use and prevent certain features of the plugin, artists don't emmidiatly need to edit 1 000 000 blocks all at once. It should not be used to copy/paste stuff that's either not yours or allready used somewhere and would look weird at the certain place, I also believe world edit has a download function which should also be blocked of course.

I won't add a poll to this thread, I'd rather see some proper arguments than just some votes.
 

slaMoria

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#2
I don't see the goal of giving WE to artists, without the copy paste stuff, because it is the most important one with the //set 1 (or //set 0).
Also, I am pretty sure that unexperienced artists like I was wouldn't pay too much attention on what they do, and they could easely annihilate a half year of work in a second.
So I would say that Foremen could get WE but artists would have too ask them, on another side, players are less slack with an artist than with a designer, and some would ask for bad stuff, with a bad goal.
 

barteldvn

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#3
I don't see the goal of giving WE to artists, without the copy paste stuff, because it is the most important one with the //set 1 (or //set 0).
Also, I am pretty sure that unexperienced artists like I was wouldn't pay too much attention on what they do, and they could easely annihilate a half year of work in a second.
So I would say that Foremen could get WE but artists would have too ask them, on another side, players are less slack with an artist than with a designer, and some would ask for bad stuff, with a bad goal.
With the copy paste stuff I didn't mean not giving the copy paste permissions but forbidding people stealing stuff from others/older builds by copying and pasting it in their own. And also the reusing houses in city like Dol Amroth. This might sound pretty logical to some, but also might not to some.

About inexperienced artists, they should mainly just try to learn it and otherwise only use features they don't know, maybe it'd be better to only have foreman have it, but then you still got most of the builders without it which is just what I'm trying to change.
 

Fireinferno13

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#4
lol I'm sure a certain @Credoo (aka Mr Fishy) remembers the days of Foreman Fireinferno constantly pestering him about wanting World Edit for the lower ranks. The biggest concern, and what eventually ended up happening, is the ranks starting to blend together as a result of shared perms.

Also, though my trust in the artists is high, the ability to do a lot of damage really quickly is also dangerously high. Take the Grond Canyon for instance.
 

RubenPieterMark

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#5
Is there a limited version of WorldEdit available? Then that would be ideal for artists and maybe the full version for foremen. Artists' progress is often delayed by the lack of designers online, so I'm pro-WE, if not for artists, then for foremen.
 

Eriol_Eandur

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#6
The wish for WE is very understandable. The problem is that there is no rollback in the case someone with WE is going mad. Imagine someone is doing widespread block replacements all over the map. There isn't even a log to find the places. This is why WE is limited to very few players.

I'm not online too much these days as I'm mainly working on plugins and quite busy in real life. But I'm willing to support you with WE as much as I can. If you need something, please place wool blocks in opposite corners of the selection to make (red wool). Then place a yellow wool block as copy location and a green wool block for paste location. Then send me a pm on discord (if needed with wanted transformations like //rotate 90 or //flip). I will come online as soon as possible.
 

barteldvn

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#7
The wish for WE is very understandable. The problem is that there is no rollback in the case someone with WE is going mad. Imagine someone is doing widespread block replacements all over the map. There isn't even a log to find the places. This is why WE is limited to very few players.

I'm not online too much these days as I'm mainly working on plugins and quite busy in real life. But I'm willing to support you with WE as much as I can. If you need something, please place wool blocks in opposite corners of the selection to make (red wool). Then place a yellow wool block as copy location and a green wool block for paste location. Then send me a pm on discord (if needed with wanted transformations like //rotate 90 or //flip). I will come online as soon as possible.
The problem is that you have to wait a couple of hours sometimes for a designer to come on, which is quite annoying for people that are working.

Some more things you could do to prevent griefing is limmiting operations sizes (can be done with permissions) and where certain operations can be done, for example I believe world guard is a plugin that can prevent certain regions from being edited with world edit. Or the other way around, that people can only use world edit in certain areas, for example those areas could be Dol Amroth and Moria.

By default you can use `//frb` and `//inspect` to search and restore changes. To reduce disk usage, increase the compression level and buffer size. To bypass logging use `//fast
Quote from the world edit forum post

I believe that world edit is a tool that is almost necessary these days to create stuff that is nice, every impressive build on the server has had the use of world edit(and so has all the other builds). The plugin is meant to speed up things and make it more easy to build certain complicated things.
 

Eriol_Eandur

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#8
I totally agree that it would be a great plus to give Aritsts WE, but still with limited selection size the risk is very high as long as there is no way to rollback.

World guard regions could be a solution. //frb seem to be exactly what we need, it's not in the original WE and I didn't know about it. I can't find //inspect command could you give me a link.
 

barteldvn

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#9
I totally agree that it would be a great plus to give Aritsts WE, but still with limited selection size the risk is very high as long as there is no way to rollback.

World guard regions could be a solution. //frb seem to be exactly what we need, it's not in the original WE and I didn't know about it. I can't find //inspect command could you give me a link.
Fast Async WorldEdit & VoxelSniper
 

Eriol_Eandur

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#13

ryttyr

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#14
lol I'm sure a certain @Credoo (aka Mr Fishy) remembers the days of Foreman Fireinferno constantly pestering him about wanting World Edit for the lower ranks. The biggest concern, and what eventually ended up happening, is the ranks starting to blend together as a result of shared perms.

Also, though my trust in the artists is high, the ability to do a lot of damage really quickly is also dangerously high. Take the Grond Canyon for instance.
What's Grond Canyon?
 
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ryttyr

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#15
As an Artist myself I must say that I do not like the idea of giving Artists access to WE, even limited WE, at all. Yes I can definitely see the great benefits in this idea and the huge amount of time it could save but I feel that the risks outweighs the reward.

For one the increased risk of fault by human error alone is enough to be fairly deterring I'd say. Add to that the prospect of a player going rouge (like during this years great drama) and we could have a lot of trouble. Now I'm not saying Artists are not to be trusted it's just that statistically speaking the more people with WE the greater the chance of someone with WE going rouge.

Secondly is the inexperience many new Artists have, heck by the time you get accepted you've still got loads to learn about building alone not to mention the very basic plugins Artists already are expected to know. Should we then force these new people to learn WE as well?

And thirdly and perhaps my strongest argument is that we at some point are gonna implement those obligatory plugin courses (which was discussed in a staff meeting some time ago) where every rank-holder has to pass a plugin commands test before fully being allowed the rank duty. That would mean that Adventurers and Commoners who want to become Artists not only have to pass the very high standards of the Artist application process which can take many months, they'd also have to pass a test on all the plugins an Artist may use AND then pass a test on WE as well...
Such an outlook would deter many potential players from even trying to go for Artist I feel and as far as I'm aware we're in a constant need of new ones. So I think giving WE to all Artists is a terrible idea.

Ps. Perhaps there could be like a Senior Artist rank that old and experienced Artists who feel like they lack the leading skills required for Foreman and Designer could apply for? Or perhaps give WE to Foremen? They're on and working alongside Artists quite often. Or would that make the Foreman rank too similar to Designer?
 
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Glov

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#16
Wasn't Foxy staff when he pasted Grond in Anorien?
If you can't trust artists with limited world edit then maybe they shouldn't be promoted to artist in the first place?
Artists will be far more useful and willing to logon to the server if they can further express their creativity using tools such as VoxelLite or WorldEdit.


You could also give out permissions to artists on a case by case basis.
 

Fireinferno13

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#17
What's Grond Canyon?
Once upon a time there was an Artisan named Foxy. Foxy wondered to himself "what is this stencil named Grond?" So Foxy decided to paste said stencil above Northern Gondor. Little did he know that Grond was an entire row of Themed Builds that proceded to carve a giant canyon, forever known as the Grond Canyon, into Northern Gondor that could not be undone. So all of the terrain and several of Glov's villages had to be redone as a result. (miss you foxy)

Wasn't Foxy staff when he pasted Grond in Anorien?
If you can't trust artists with limited world edit then maybe they shouldn't be promoted to artist in the first place?
Artists will be far more useful and willing to logon to the server if they can further express their creativity using tools such as VoxelLite or WorldEdit.

I'm going to fuck off back to *********.

#FreeTheArtists2018


You could also give out permissions to artists on a case by case basis.
Ye he was. My point was Staff can barely handle WorldEdit on certain occasions and still make mistakes so don't think that is a power that should be passed down to artists. I mean Hearth did enough damage with a bucket of lava, imagine if he had a wooden ax!
 
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Milarwen

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#18
Once upon a time there was an Artisan named Foxy. Foxy wondered to himself "what is this stencil named Grond?" So Foxy decided to paste said stencil above Northern Gondor. Little did he know that Grond was an entire row of Themed Builds that proceded to carve a giant canyon, forever known as the Grond Canyon, into Northern Gondor that could not be undone. So all of the terrain and several of Glov's villages had to be redone as a result. (miss you foxy)

Ye he was. My point was Staff can barely handle WorldEdit on certain occasions and still make mistakes so don't think that is a power that should be passed down to artists. I mean Guan did enough damage with a bucket of lava, imagine if he had a wooden ax!
There is something poetic about "imagine if he had a wooden axe!"

But yes. WE can be devastating even for the skilled user.

I remember a staff on my old server, that was looking for a new plot in the main world. He wanted it to be remote so he teleported to a corner. He started marking with his edit wand (tree axe) but soon discovered it was all ready occupied so he teleported to the opposite corner. He soon forgot that his wand had all ready marked a spot on the opposite side so he smashed a second coordinate and spawned a block. Resulting in a diagonal block reaching 70.000 blocks to the first corner, but before he could undo it, the server crashed as it was a pretty heavy operation. The server didn't finish the job and no undo was available. We probably used a week to repair (rebuild) all the damage on the map using the weekly backup.

After that our developer made some WE commands with limitations, extracted or based on WE, we now had a WE lite version, that would not allow for more than 100000 blocks, in a cubic area.
 
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mapthor

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#19
I trust some artists with WorldEdit, but I don't think it's a good idea. I think only staff should have those perms. But that's just me