More ranks with world edit

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barteldvn

Foreman
Foreman
Jul 9, 2014
166
446
22
Belgium
Languages
English, Dutch, French, a fair bit of Latin
#21
There is something poetic about "imagine if he had a wooden axe!"

But yes. WE can be devastating even for the skilled user.

I remember a staff on my old server, that was looking for a new plot in the main world. He wanted it to be remote so he teleported to a corner. He started marking with his edit wand (tree axe) but soon discovered it was all ready occupied so he teleported to the opposite corner. He soon forgot that his wand had all ready marked a spot on the opposite side so he smashed a second coordinate and spawned a block. Resulting in a diagonal block reaching 70.000 blocks to the first corner, but before he could undo it, the server crashed as it was a pretty heavy operation. The server didn't finish the job and no undo was available. We probably used a week to repair (rebuild) all the damage on the map using the weekly backup.

After that our developer made some WE commands with limitations, extracted or based on WE, we now had a WE lite version, that would not allow for more than 100000 blocks, in a cubic area.
Hmmm I don think it's possible to crash servers these days any more with only 70 000 block operations.
I think it might only be possible to crash the server when you really try to. Which again asks the question if artists that have worked here can be trusted?

And I'm allready suggesting limits to the area artists can work in and the amount of blocks they can edit in one go. Also artists only need a few of the commands, they don't really need brushes or anything. Further more I like this idea:

Ps. Perhaps there could be like a Senior Artist rank that old and experienced Artists who feel like they lack the leading skills required for Foreman and Designer could apply for? Or perhaps give WE to Foremen? They're on and working alongside Artists quite often. Or would that make the Foreman rank too similar to Designer?
I think that that could be a way to make sure that builders are truely trustworthy.

I am just saying that pretty much ever build server out there has world edit for their main building force, so why shouldn't we if we limit it as much to make sure there can't be much griefing done. I think the risk is worth it.
 

Lindolas

Lead Builder
Staff member
Lead Builder
Mar 4, 2017
156
342
15
Languages
English
#22
How frequent does the server do backups? If somone messes up something with WE, there's always a backup to roll back to right?
 

Darki

Designer
Staff member
Designer
Feb 4, 2016
91
359
34
26
Norway
Languages
Dutch, Norwegian, English and German
#24
They have already made the mistake of giving me access to world edit.....
 

Milarwen

Hardcore MCME-er
Aug 3, 2016
136
190
24
37
Languages
Englsih, Norwegian.
#25
Hmmm I don think it's possible to crash servers these days any more with only 70 000 block operations.
I think it might only be possible to crash the server when you really try to. Which again asks the question if artists that have worked here can be trusted?
Well, the total amount of blocks it would have been 1 254 400 000 000 (70 000 x 70 000 x 256) if the operation would have succeeded. A whooping 1.2 Trillion blocks or 1254 Billion Blocks.
 
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mapthor

Hardcore MCME-er
Feb 21, 2017
286
643
17
The Midwest
Languages
English
#26
This is what I think about all of this

  • Artists should not have WE powers but foremen should
I'm not hating on the artists here, but they really don't need WE. The main point of the artist rank is to help build on the server and fix derps. They're not designers who need WE. And trust is also a bug issue with this. Some commoner may apply for artist just for WE and destroy the map, which could potentially happen.

Foremen should have WE powers though. Foremen are the players who run the jobs and are trusted more.

I think WE should only be a staff member
power. (Designer+)
 

barteldvn

Foreman
Foreman
Jul 9, 2014
166
446
22
Belgium
Languages
English, Dutch, French, a fair bit of Latin
#31
Well, the total amount of blocks it would have been 1 254 400 000 000 (70 000 x 70 000 x 256) if the operation would have succeeded. A whooping 1.2 Trillion blocks or 1254 Billion Blocks.
Well with those areas where people could world edit, that wouldn't be able to happen (70 000x70 000) because it's larger than the size of the map and I'm assuming those areas could not be much bigger than 1000x1000 at most, and like I said limits should be made obviously.

And there have been inexperienced designers that just got world edit for the first time, looking at bwot, he hasn't crashed/ destroyed anything... I think.

This is what I think about all of this

  • Artists should not have WE powers but foremen should
I'm not hating on the artists here, but they really don't need WE. The main point of the artist rank is to help build on the server and fix derps. They're not designers who need WE. And trust is also a bug issue with this. Some commoner may apply for artist just for WE and destroy the map, which could potentially happen.

Foremen should have WE powers though. Foremen are the players who run the jobs and are trusted more.

I think WE should only be a staff member
power. (Designer+)
I've seen many artists these days work on big projects, and some designers on little ones. It really depends on what they're doing. For example Napoleon has done some big halls in moria, I'd also mention Jesia and Patrick, but they both have world edit now. Yet still they did some big halls just by hand and having to ask designers to copy, paste, flip and set certain things.

Some people are concerned about whether this would make an artist as powerfull as a designer, I guess it would in that they can do world edit, but they'd be first of all more limited, wouldn't have acces to voxel, still aren't meant to be project leaders like designers are and still should listen to what a designer says. They would not have the ability to /kick, permission to the staff world and whatever permissions designers have.

Mcme is almost like a buildteam, attempting one of the biggest projects in minecraft, can't we give ourselves a bit more help by giving artists the ability that all buildteams and build servers have these days?
 
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BWOT

Head Builder
Staff member
Head Designer
Designer
Donor
Jul 31, 2016
888
1,496
55
17
U.S.A. , NYC
Languages
English, German, French
#32
Well with those areas where people could world edit, that wouldn't be able to happen (70 000x70 000) because it's larger than the size of the map and I'm assuming those areas could not be much bigger than 1000x1000 at most, and like I said limits should be made obviously.

And there have been inexperienced designers that just got world edit for the first time, looking at bwot, he hasn't crashed/ destroyed anything... I think.



I've seen many artists these days work on big projects, and some designers on little ones. It really depends on what they're doing. For example Napoleon has done some big halls in moria, I'd also mention Jesia and Patrick, but they both have world edit now. Yet still they did some big halls just by hand and having to ask designers to copy, paste, flip and set certain things.

Some people are concerned about whether this would make an artist as powerfull as a designer, I guess it would in that they can do world edit, but they'd be first of all more limited, wouldn't have acces to voxel, still aren't meant to be project leaders like designers are and still should listen to what a designer says. They would not have the ability to /kick, permission to the staff world and whatever permissions designers have.

Mcme is almost like a buildteam, attempting one of the biggest projects in minecraft, can't we give ourselves a bit more help by giving artists the ability that all buildteams, build servers have these days?
I like how I am always categorized as the unexperienced designer
 

barteldvn

Foreman
Foreman
Jul 9, 2014
166
446
22
Belgium
Languages
English, Dutch, French, a fair bit of Latin
#36
My personal opinion about giving artists world edit:

Positives:
- Faster progress
- Stimulates originality
- Would make Moria a more doable project
- Artists could do (more) bigger projects
- Designers don't have to do we for artists anymore
- and a few more

Negatives:
- Would make griefing more easy, in a way


There are a few other problems, mainly the fact that it's hard to limit the artists permissions. I'm not sure how'd that work out and that it could be a bit hard to check what exactly is done.

For the griefing part, I kinda have to dissagree, this griefing may be more effective, but can also be forced to be undone and FAWE would have a build-in backup system that would be able to rollback actions, as well can be used together with other protection plugins that have such features, which might also be used on MCME.

Some other ideas were to only give world edit to foremen, which I don't want at all to encourage, since I want all builder ranks to have world edit and not only the higher ones. Maybe foreman could have less limits than artists, but not even that is really needed.

So that would leave one option to me for implementing world edit:
An artist purge where all artists and foreman too I guess, get evaluated on activity, loyalty and how mature they are.
I honestly don't see any disadvantage, since the griefing would be pretty much as easily fixable as it would if it's done by hand.
 

TI_020601

Hardcore MCME-er
Jul 20, 2016
250
390
16
17
London
Languages
english
#37
How would you test someone's loyalty, it's hard to measure and is easily faked. While the griefing would be easy to undo it's easier to just avoid any additional means of grief, artists can all ready place and/or destroy blocks any where they want to, I'm not saying they all would, just they all could.
 

Eldar_Telcontar

Hardcore MCME-er
Mar 27, 2014
143
757
30
24
England
#38
It would seem from this thread that there needs to be a re-evaluation of the ranks of Artist, Foreman, and Designer, and what each of these 3 ranks bring to the server. What is their purpose, and is that being delivered in the current meta?

From first hand experience in Dol Amroth I can say that the old roles have changed a bit: the line between Designer and Foreman has "blurred" somewhat recently, with Foremen being delegated tasks (such as entire areas of a city) that usually would be left to a higher rank. Designers keep the overall project under control and keep the vision of that in mind which is important.

Artists still perform a key task which has not really changed - they are the main workforce of regular builders on the server. They also have more power than they have ever had on MCME already, and personally I think giving them WE is a step too far.

Maybe then it is time to give Foremen more permissions to suit their needs? Or at least consider it, or test it out? :D What are your thoughts?
 

ryttyr

Artist
Artist
Apr 22, 2014
706
1,049
28
22
Stockholm, Sweden
Languages
English and Swedish
#39
Artists still perform a key task which has not really changed - they are the main workforce of regular builders on the server. They also have more power than they have ever had on MCME already, and personally I think giving them WE is a step too far.
So wait.. your problem with this idea lies in giving artists more power? I hope I'm mistaken but are you fearing some Artist uprising or something? Because that's the impression I get when I read this and as an Artist I feel a bit hurt that you may feel that way so I hope I'm mistaken. I hope I just completely misunderstood the intent of your statement.
 

superlolster

Assistant
Staff member
Assistant
Jul 31, 2017
332
942
38
14
Pacific Ocean
Languages
English
#40
an artist uprising lel, damn its so annoying that i agree with both sides on this, i think artists could use we but i only know a handful of artists, so i dunno how they would handle we, but the ones ik i would trust, but then there is the problem of grief, but if designers r trusted why can't artists and foremen be trusted, were all human at the end of the day, but like eldar said if we were to give out we permissions then maybe there should be a re-evaluation of what the ranks stand for and do, im sorta giving an outsiders perspective on this as obviously im not an artist+, and my opinion probs doesn't help but ive watched this debate for too long to not have an input now.