On ranks and 'Badges'

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QuantaCube

Foreman
Foreman
Mar 4, 2014
76
1
0
#1
Here's the Idea: Permission 'badges' (better name?)

Foreman as a rank would be gotten rid of and in place is set a series of permissions badges around the roles that artists, guides and foremen would have, and they consist of these badges:
ARTIST BADGE: Anyone with this badge would be able to build, artists are given this by default, but those of the guide rank may also apply for this badge without changing their rank.
GUIDE BADGE: This badge gives the permission to run tours and play games, all guides have this badge but, again, an artist can also apply for this badge
FOREMAN BADGE: This badge gives the person with it the ability to run jobs
WORLDEDIT BADGE: This badge gives the person with it the ability to use the 'worldedit' plugin.
ARCHITECT BADGE: This badge essentially means the person with it is capable of running projects, and the application for this job would be a 'trial project', where they would run a project and if the result is deemed good enough, they get the badge.

These badges could be applied for by any artist/guide, so anyone who feels they are especially good at one thing may be of a certain rank, but can apply for other badges if they want to branch out and are not so restricted to their rank. All staff ranks would stay the same.

The rank of foreman could also possibly be reserved for those who want to run jobs as their sole purpose , although artists/guides could also have a foreman badge, but the name of foreman could be an easier notifier of job-running to adventurers/new players.

If anyone has any expansion of ideas for this alternate rank system proposal , please tell!
 
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ryttyr

Dirt Conaisseur
Apr 22, 2014
620
942
39
22
Stockholm, Sweden
Languages
English and Swedish
#2
I like the flexibility in rank duties and permissions this would give and it would decrease the gaps between ranks substantially as well however I have no idea how this would work with our current permission system in terms of code. It would also smear the boundaries of the ranks even further, something I myself have no problem with but I know others who have voiced their concerns about it.
Also, may I suggest you use a different name for the Architect Badge as that sounds like it gives the permission to use the Architect Plugin, something all players on the server (with the exception of oathbreakers) can use by default. Instead I'd suggest calling it the Artisan Badge as leading smaller projects is what the Artisan Rank used to do back in the days from what I've understood.
 

NicTheFifth

Dirt Conaisseur
Jan 10, 2015
108
3
33
#4
Although it be a good idea, let's first look at history. MCME has had a lot of ranks, many which had very specific permissions. This was deemed unorganised, so they were lowered, and now we going back up again? I would say that this, although it is a good idea, will have a bad result. There is a big chance that it will go as history has gone (already 2 ranks have come back from the dead) and that even more will just cause history to repeat itself, so I would say no.
 

barteldvn

Foreman
Foreman
Jul 9, 2014
135
400
48
Belgium
Languages
English, Dutch, French, a fair bit of Latin
#5
Here's the Idea: Permission 'badges' (better name?)

Foreman as a rank would be gotten rid of and in place is set a series of permissions badges around the roles that artists, guides and foremen would have, and they consist of these badges:
ARTIST BADGE: Anyone with this badge would be able to build, artists are given this by default, but those of the guide rank may also apply for this badge without changing their rank.
GUIDE BADGE: This badge gives the permission to run tours and play games, all guides have this badge but, again, an artist can also apply for this badge
FOREMAN BADGE: This badge gives the person with it the ability to run jobs
WORLDEDIT BADGE: This badge gives the person with it the ability to use the 'worldedit' plugin.
ARCHITECT BADGE: This badge essentially means the person with it is capable of running projects, and the application for this job would be a 'trial project', where they would run a project and if the result is deemed good enough, they get the badge.

These badges could be applied for by any artist/guide, so anyone who feels they are especially good at one thing may be of a certain rank, but can apply for other badges if they want to branch out and are not so restricted to their rank. All staff ranks would stay the same.

The rank of foreman could also possibly be reserved for those who want to run jobs as their sole purpose , although artists/guides could also have a foreman badge, but the name of foreman could be an easier notifier of job-running to adventurers/new players.

If anyone has any expansion of ideas for this alternate rank system proposal , please tell!
Definitely a good idea, but there are a couple things which are a bit weird/useless

For example the architect badge seems pretty useless allready, that person would allready be artist, foreman and have world edit, since otherwise it's pretty much impossible to run any project,
and people that have all those qualities and want to do them sounds pretty much like a designer.

The world edit badge sounds very good to me, but I've already made a thread on that and from what I heard staff is curently reviewing the idea and finding if there's a compromise on what would be the best way to use it.

I believe artist and guides should stay seperated, you can give tours if you really want as an artists already just not with the fancy plugin, the plugin is mainly to make it easier for guides. Giving someone both things would be quite useless in my opinion and would make them do less building or guide stuff.

In general I think the rank system at the moment is more than enough, the only badge I would see working out is the world edit one, which could be a good idea for staff to give people (again see my last thread).
 
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ryttyr

Dirt Conaisseur
Apr 22, 2014
620
942
39
22
Stockholm, Sweden
Languages
English and Swedish
#6
Although it be a good idea, let's first look at history. MCME has had a lot of ranks, many which had very specific permissions. This was deemed unorganised, so they were lowered, and now we going back up again? I would say that this, although it is a good idea, will have a bad result. There is a big chance that it will go as history has gone (already 2 ranks have come back from the dead) and that even more will just cause history to repeat itself, so I would say no.
These are not separate ranks but rather defined sub-sets of permissions granted to specific individuals.
 

reycraft

Aspiring Commoner
Oct 22, 2017
79
208
11
13
The tasty land of pizza
Languages
English, Italian, some French
#7
I like this idea! I think that, since all of these badges except the guide one are build related, you should be artist to apply for any badge other than the artist one (which could be applied for by guides), since all of them are build-related.

I think that the foreman rank should not be removed and that the foreman badge should be used for people that will keep the permission to run jobs only temporarily, like it was suggested when the foreman rank was reintroduced in the beginning of 2017 (yes, i read all that thread and much more).

I think that, for an artist with a guide badge or for a guide with an artist badge the base rank should always take priority, so artist guides would not build very big things, such as moria halls, but only houses and such, and guide artists would focus on their artist tasks and occasionally run tours and games.

I agree with bart about the architect badge, but maybe it could be that people with this rank lead smaller projects like an artist leading a small town or a part of a city.

And since i didn't say anything in the WorldEdit thread bart made, i will write my opininons about that here. I think that all foremen should get WorldEdit and any artists who want it should be given the opportunity to apply for it, completing a course like the voxel one which is currently being made by Finrod and like the banner and armorstand ones on a downloaded map and by passing a test under the supervision of a designer, and I think that your idea is a great way to do this.
 

TI_020601

Aspiring Commoner
Jul 20, 2016
239
363
17
16
London
Languages
english
#8
It's a good idea in theory but in practice I think it would confuse the ranks too much, blurring the lines between Artist and Guide, for example, too much in my opinion.
 

Finrod_Amandil

Head Designer
Staff member
Head Designer
Designer
Media Team
Mar 2, 2014
2,752
5,754
160
23
Switzerland
www.elbisch.ch
Languages
German (native), English, French
#9
Sorry that my reply is a bit late, but I think this is a very very interesting idea! It would make it possible to make permissions not be dependant on the ranks. The system I am imagining right now would be that the ranks would stay the same and represent functions and tasks rather than permissions. Every rank comes with a set of badges by default (i.e, Artist rank would have a "Build permission" badge, a "TP to player" and some others), but additional badges could be gotten as well. I could imagine that players that are switching between i.e. Artist and Guide (as we had a few times) need to decide on either rank but could keep the permissions of both. Badges could also be handed out temporarily for projects or similar.

Thanks a lot for the idea, I will think about it a bit and bring it up in the next staff meeting which we'll be having this weekend.
 

Glov

One Of Us
Mar 1, 2014
530
1,568
73
#10
[B] Build perms
[+] W/e Voxel perms
[F] Foreman/Job perms
[D] Developer

-Adventurer

-Guide
-Guide[B]
-Guide[B+]
-Guide[B+][F]

-Artist[B]
-Artist[B+]
-Artist[B+][F]

-Moderator
-Administrator

Remove defunct and useless ranks such as Commoner and Designer.
-Sub projects available via public application for all [B] ranks.
-Lead projects available via public application for all [B+] ranks.
-Public jobs thread created for all [F] ranks to utilize in helping to complete projects.

Close "Staff" Forums
-Private Moderator subforum
-Private Developer subforum
-Public Projects subforum, open to all [B] ranks
-Public Project suggestions subforum, open to all users.

Restricted access to [+] perms for all [B] ranks on FB allowing them to learn the plugins before gaining [+] perms.

Utilize your users at their full extent, profit.
 

superlolster

Manual Treebuilder
Jul 31, 2017
257
767
52
14
Pacific Ocean
Languages
English
#11
not gonna lie this whole badge system seems like a great idea on paper, but in practise it could prove to be more confusing, If I'm honest new people joining this server seem rather puzzled by our rank system as it stands and it does take some getting used to, introducing more 'badges' for ranks would confuse more people in my opinion, however I can see it working if its not overcomplicated, but as it stands at the moment I'm not too sure how it would work in practise.
This is my opinion, please no hate on me or anything :p:D;)
 

Indorilian

Dirt Conaisseur
Mar 1, 2014
474
1,801
38
22
Jersey
#12
not gonna lie this whole badge system seems like a great idea on paper, but in practise it could prove to be more confusing, If I'm honest new people joining this server seem rather puzzled by our rank system as it stands and it does take some getting used to, introducing more 'badges' for ranks would confuse more people in my opinion, however I can see it working if its not overcomplicated, but as it stands at the moment I'm not too sure how it would work in practise.
This is my opinion, please no hate on me or anything :p:D;)
If people are already confused by the current system then there’s no harm done by adding a different somewhat confusing system. But by adding what glov has suggested it would make it easier to do what you wanted to do without as many restrictions. Let’s say I want to be a guide, and I also want to build. Currently I wouldn’t have build permissions (as far as I know, I have no idea it’s been years since I was guide and I don’t know if things have changed) and I would have to wait for someone to run a job or switch over to the artist rank. But I can’t do both. With glov’s system, I could be a guide, but if wanted to and had enough skill and time I could be both guide and builder or even designer at the same time. Am I spending too much time on one thing and neglecting the other? Simply take away the underused permission. The new system would make it easy for people to be more dedicated to multiple endeavors instead of going “I’m a guide so I’m just gunna spout lore and give tours” or “I’m artist so I’m just gunna build what I’m told to and ignore everything else”, and it lets you try new things without needing to completely give up the old.
 

Merluin

Foreman
Foreman
Jul 23, 2017
238
391
55
17
Belgium
Languages
Dutch, French and English
#13
[B] Build perms
[+] W/e Voxel perms
[F] Foreman/Job perms
[D] Developer

-Adventurer

-Guide
-Guide[B]
-Guide[B+]
-Guide[B+][F]

-Artist[B]
-Artist[B+]
-Artist[B+][F]

-Moderator
-Administrator

Remove defunct and useless ranks such as Commoner and Designer.
-Sub projects available via public application for all [B] ranks.
-Lead projects available via public application for all [B+] ranks.
-Public jobs thread created for all [F] ranks to utilize in helping to complete projects.

Close "Staff" Forums
-Private Moderator subforum
-Private Developer subforum
-Public Projects subforum, open to all [B] ranks
-Public Project suggestions subforum, open to all users.

Restricted access to [+] perms for all [B] ranks on FB allowing them to learn the plugins before gaining [+] perms.

Utilize your users at their full extent, profit.
Tbh... I don't see what would be different... Nothing changes except for the guides.

Artist (B) is now just artist
Artist
(B)
[+] is now designer
Artist
(B) [+] [F] is now foreman (we. Perms incomming)
Guide is now guide
Guide (B)
[+] [F] is now foreman

For the other 2 remaining guide ranks would it make much more sense to create a guide badge [G]. Because guides that build are basically artists that guide...

So that'd be:
Artist [G]
Designer [G]
 
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Finrod_Amandil

Head Designer
Staff member
Head Designer
Designer
Media Team
Mar 2, 2014
2,752
5,754
160
23
Switzerland
www.elbisch.ch
Languages
German (native), English, French
#14
The system that I have in mind would have the ranks be technically independant of the permissions, Ranks would be an indicator of what role this player has on the server, whether he's a staff member (thus bound to participate at staff meetings) or a guide (thus expected to help out new players). That guide may have build perms, but that would not make it a new rank. There could be two players with the same set of permissions but different ranks or roles.

However naturally a to be able to execute a role sometimes specific perms are just fundamentally required, so with some ranks specific permissions are by default included.

Each rank has a set of default permissions which are gained when this role is gotten. Higher ranks inherit the perms of the lower ranks. This would be mostly the same as it is now. But additionally every player can obtain additional permissions, i.e. an Artist that has full access to the animation plugin.

The question is a bit how it could technically be done elegantly, not sure how flexible LuckyPerms is. As I see it, every permission would have one default rank it belongs to. For that some "helper" ranks would need to be made, i.e. a "staff" rank that would sum up the perms that are shared among Designer and Enforcer. Then every rank would have a weight (and thus every permission as well). In case someone gets demoted from an Artist rank (i.e. weight "4") to Adventurer (i.e. weight "2") the player would lose all permissions with weight higher than "2".

However, if a player i.e. switches from Artist (weight "4") to Guide (also weight "4") he would keep all permissions of weigt "4" and up, only when the weight of the rank decreases perms are lost.
 

Ithron_Luin

Aspiring Commoner
May 22, 2017
35
52
9
13
Eastern Time Zone
Languages
English, French
#15
I think the badges would end up being a bit confusing. This is what I have to propose as a rank system (starting at artist/guide):

- Guide (normal guide role, or could have extra perms of enforcer added)
- Artist (normal artist role)
- Assistant (or a better name if you have one) (guide + artist, simply both ranks smashed together, and therefore very much unlike the old foreman; you must be guide/artist to apply)
- Foreman (normal foreman rank)
- Staff (or a better name if you have one) (enforcer + designer, with the main focus on building, possibly the guide takes the enforcer role, and assistant would be current guide + current artist, ie no enforcer responsibilities)

This system simply removes the badges part, making it simpler, while doing exactly what badges do.
 

ryttyr

Dirt Conaisseur
Apr 22, 2014
620
942
39
22
Stockholm, Sweden
Languages
English and Swedish
#17
To everyone freaking out about "Oh noes. Changes!" and "Oh noes, this will confuse everything so let's just rearange our entire rank system instead."

From what I can tell this new system would only change how the permissions are handled internally. The ranks would stay the same with the same permissions. The only thing this would change is how permissions to various plugins is structured on a technical level making the system more dynamic for when it needs to be.

It would make it easier for a staff member to grant temporary permissions to a specific plugin for a limited time on the rare occasions when that is needed and on the even rarer occasions where we have a player proficient in more than one rank he or she could keep one main rank (which would be considered their main duty) but have permissions to the plugins for the other rank as well where previously said player would have to reapply for the other rank every time they wanted to do an activity specific to that rank. (For newer members: yes we have had members who did this in the past)

This is how I've understood what the staff would like to do with this, now I could be wrong but if this is how they imagine things I totally agree with them.
 
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Natanyagrad

Aspiring Commoner
Mar 17, 2014
78
87
19
#18
The last time ranks were rearranged, it was because there was a general consensus that there were too many ranks. Thrall, Commoner, Artist, Guide, Artisan, Foreman, Steward, Bounder, Vala. Was a little overkill for a build server, so things were simplified to Adventurer, Artist, Guide, Designer, Enforcer and Admin. At this rate though, things are going back to the old needlessly overthought system.

This might be a little radical to swallow, but if you've successfully applied for a rank, shouldn't that mean you're trusted enough to place a few blocks without needing extra perms? Just because your main job is to welcome new players and spout lore doesn't mean you can't copy a style. In fact, if you have a rank, you should be mature enough to know whether you're crap at building or not, and thus not need the rank or the badge to tell you whether you should or shouldn't be building.
 

ryttyr

Dirt Conaisseur
Apr 22, 2014
620
942
39
22
Stockholm, Sweden
Languages
English and Swedish
#19
The last time ranks were rearranged, it was because there was a general consensus that there were too many ranks. Thrall, Commoner, Artist, Guide, Artisan, Foreman, Steward, Bounder, Vala. Was a little overkill for a build server, so things were simplified to Adventurer, Artist, Guide, Designer, Enforcer and Admin. At this rate though, things are going back to the old needlessly overthought system.

This might be a little radical to swallow, but if you've successfully applied for a rank, shouldn't that mean you're trusted enough to place a few blocks without needing extra perms? Just because your main job is to welcome new players and spout lore doesn't mean you can't copy a style. In fact, if you have a rank, you should be mature enough to know whether you're crap at building or not, and thus not need the rank or the badge to tell you whether you should or shouldn't be building.
Unfortunately being able to get a higher rank does not always equate to being responsible enough to have build perms as demonstrated by a certain Guide I won't name. Also being able to copy a style is much harder than it sounds and that's exactly why Artists has to go through the lenghty Artist application process to ensure that the build quality of our builders match the quality of the server. If Guides got build perms just for being guides then what's even the point in the Artist application process anymore?

Besides, read my post above. This change won't even add any new ranks. It will just make our current permission system more flexible to accommodate for the much more fleeting rank duties that we have nowadays. Look at DA for instance where we had Artists leading the work on various smaller sections of the city with this new system they could have been given temporary perms whilst DA was going on instead of having to wait for a Foreman to come online as when Foremen was online they were often too busy with the city at large to run smaller jobs anyways. Now when we have more Foremen this is not as big an issue anymore but still. This wouldn't add more ranks, only make the permissions more flexible.
 

Finrod_Amandil

Head Designer
Staff member
Head Designer
Designer
Media Team
Mar 2, 2014
2,752
5,754
160
23
Switzerland
www.elbisch.ch
Languages
German (native), English, French
#20
Thanks for that explanation ryt, thats precisely how i imagine it. More flexibility but not more ranks. Or even a conceptual change that ranks are no longer seen as a set of permissions, but as "role" which displays what tasks someone mainly set out to tackle