Rank Changes Suggestion

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ooitsbirdo

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#1
Hello people of MCME its your bird ooitsbirdo

I'm making this thread to propose a suggestion to how ranks are done by shifting there focus a little bit. I would like to start of by staying that all ranks keep there main purpose. e.g guide still give tours and plan events like mini games and so on as they are doing now. you get the point.

Starting off with commoner, its difficult for players to get promoted to commoner, its surprisingly hard. and there are a few people who so deserve commoner but they cant get them cause getting the votes you need is hard. so i suggest that designers and Foreman can propose people who should be put forward to be promoted to commoner. since those 2 ranks know which players do work in jobs and who are good builders who could go a long way. [ To sum up, Voting goes as its ineffective in my opinion but instead foreman and Designer can propose who deserves to be promoted, which means people can be promoted effectively]

Secondly we have the Guide Rank. This is the beloved rank that gets accused of being the lazy rank in mcme who do not do much, this has been improving tho over the past few weeks. So i suggest a little change. Guides should be given creative and are allowed to builds just like artist, of course they don't have to be as good as artist but enough for them to build houses and so on. I say this because of a few changes i will add along the lines later but a main one is, because they can improve there building skills needed to run jobs and apply to foreman rank. (since believe it or not you do need building skills to run jobs as it takes quite a bit of work to know what can look good what doesn't look good and then explain on how you can improve it by giving you ideas on it). So allowing them to build gives them a chance to go and build and progress like artist rank would, cause at the moment if you become artist you will most likely become a foreman or designer, if you become a guide you will probably end up becoming a enforcer. (of course there have been a few people who broke these rules but im talking about the majority of members). I will explain further changes when i get to enforcer role. Also i believe this can allow guide to lead little projects like artist sometimes do (cough cough @TI_020601 Col).

Thirdly The Enforcers, they will still be enforcing stuff, however instead of them being a scary spying force in vanish mode it would be better for them to actually work with the community. So i thought that they could have access to We and be part of projects (be project staff memebers) in the community, meaning they can help build and be part of the server and allow people to interact with them, making them less scary and more friendly (i hope, @MaDIIReD still seem a bit shady mannn , i do not trust him). This links with my previous point about Guides, if guides have more experience in building and leading little projects they will be able to easily start to become enforcers who are participate in projects. Of course the enforcers doesn't have to participate in projects but it gives them a reason why to log on and actually talk to people and not be hidden behind the vanish command.
Edit: I forgot to mention Designers will still always be lead in projects unless some shady enfocers comes in and wants to lead projects like they did in the past life as artisan ... (cough cough you know who you are... )

Soo my last suggestion goes to Mr @Credoo , his role is more of an assisting role which is a pretty good idea, so they help the 2 heads in there work (also heads do not change they are to busy their ranks can stay the same) so i feel his rank should be a Stewart rank that helps the community and takes a load off the 2 heads, if there are problems you have with people take it up with a enforcer if they cant sort it you can talk to Credoo , and if Credoo feel if this problem is too big for him to decide he will take it up with the Head Dyno. [To Sum up this rank , its a rank voted by the Heads for who they think would be for the best of the server for them to assist them in there work. This rank is there to assist the heads, and will sort out minor problems that are not big enough problems for head to worry about it]

There reason why i bring this up cause the purpose of the server is to build Middle earth. So this would logically would mean that all ranks contribute towards that purpose. so these changes allow all ranks to build and hopefully allow the server to make more progress.

Thanks for reading and i would want you to discuss my ideas so go ahead. Please to criticize this so it can be improved . this is for the community to discuss since all changes effect everyone.

also i suck at english and did not proof read it soo haha enjoy terrible english
 
Last edited:

Eriol_Eandur

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#2
I agree it is hard to get Commoner for some players. I think it depends a lot on personality, extroverted player who talk a lot get votes much quicker than more silent builders.
But I would not make things more complex by introducing a system to propose players for voting (Ofc I would have fun to code that :p). As you said @ooitsbirdo, Designers and Foremen know who is actually helping with building. So I would say limit voting to those ranks and considerably reduce amount of needed votes ofc. In some special cases Guide or Artist can just propose Designers and Foremen to vote for an Adventurer they noticed.

Building perms for Guides have been discussed several times. Last time when Formen rank was created. There are good arguments for and against. Personally I would like it. One major argument against is that Guide and Artist would hardly differ from each other. Also Guides would have same building perms as Artists with less skill requirements. Additionally Guides would have perms for tours and minigames. Not everyone would call that fair.
 

BWOT

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#3
I love your ideas ooits, the only problem I have is just randomly giving all these other ranks basically the artist rank will not only make the artist rank more obsolete but (and I don't want to offend anybody) but not all of those players are top class at building, however I know many of them are and were previous artist (especially the enforcers) so maybe the old artists can build as well and for guides who weren't previously artist -> they have to apply for artist and pass before they get building perks.
 

ooitsbirdo

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#4
I agree it is hard to get Commoner for some players. I think it depends a lot on personality, extroverted player who talk a lot get votes much quicker than more silent builders.
But I would not make things more complex by introducing a system to propose players for voting (Ofc I would have fun to code that :p). As you said @ooitsbirdo, Designers and Foremen know who is actually helping with building. So I would say limit voting to those ranks and considerably reduce amount of needed votes ofc. In some special cases Guide or Artist can just propose Designers and Foremen to vote for an Adventurer they noticed.

Building perms for Guides have been discussed several times. Last time when Formen rank was created. There are good arguments for and against. Personally I would like it. One major argument against is that Guide and Artist would hardly differ from each other. Also Guides would have same building perms as Artists with less skill requirements. Additionally Guides would have perms for tours and minigames. Not everyone would call that fair.
This is where the type of jobs are given out, artist are expected to build the own halls in moria, they are expected to build 5 houses not just one in DA, the difference is the type of jobs they receive, which is decided by the foreman and Designer so that makes it a lot more fair

I love your ideas ooits, the only problem I have is just randomly giving all these other ranks basically the artist rank will not only make the artist rank more obsolete but (and I don't want to offend anybody) but not all of those players are top class at building, however I know many of them are and were previous artist (especially the enforcers) so maybe the old artists can build as well and for guides who weren't previously artist -> they have to apply for artist and pass before they get building perks.
again as mentioned Artist are the servers top builders , thats the point of the rank, so there jobs should be hard, they are the rank that is expected to build amazing things, thats what they do, back in 2014- 15 artist built some amazing things and worked in teams to dominate contest build i.e. SugerKoala bear team that won so many contest builds cause they built amazing things.
 

ryttyr

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#5
Just as BWOT (rather bluntly) brought up there is a problem in that whilst the skill of an Artist is tested thoroughly via the Artist application process a Guide's skill is not and can thus be an uncertainty for Foremen or Designers asigning them jobs.
Also there would be a problem if Guides were expected to help build on the server because some players seek the rank of Guide just ib order to help the server even if they can't build that well. If Guides were expected to build then these players would be alienated from the comunity.

May I instead suggest that (if possible) players can apply for, and hold several ranks at once? So that a Guide who feel they have good enough building skills can apply for artist as well which eliminates the uncertainty of said Guide's building skills which could otherwise have been problematic for a Foreman or Designer to know.
Same goes for Enforcers who wants to do some building or project leading as well. They can then just apply for the additional rank of Artist, Foreman or Designer if they want. That way they too can proove that they are ready for the tasks they would wish to undertake.


Also, as a side note: In light of the "drama" that happened a while ago I would wish that Enforcers are much, much more transparent in their dealings in general than they have been in the past (that is, the past that I myself have seen).
 

barteldvn

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#6
Just as BWOT (rather bluntly) brought up there is a problem in that whilst the skill of an Artist is tested thoroughly via the Artist application process a Guide's skill is not and can thus be an uncertainty for Foremen or Designers asigning them jobs.
Also there would be a problem if Guides were expected to help build on the server because some players seek the rank of Guide just ib order to help the server even if they can't build that well. If Guides were expected to build then these players would be alienated from the comunity.

May I instead suggest that (if possible) players can apply for, and hold several ranks at once? So that a Guide who feel they have good enough building skills can apply for artist as well which eliminates the uncertainty of said Guide's building skills which could otherwise have been problematic for a Foreman or Designer to know.
Same goes for Enforcers who wants to do some building or project leading as well. They can then just apply for the additional rank of Artist, Foreman or Designer if they want. That way they too can proove that they are ready for the tasks they would wish to undertake.


Also, as a side note: In light of the "drama" that happened a while ago I would wish that Enforcers are much, much more transparent in their dealings in general than they have been in the past (that is, the past that I myself have seen).
Seems like quite a good idea, though I fear that some guides who'd have the artist rank too, might not be able to do both. I understand that guides want to build, but can they both focus on being guide and artist at the same time? Depends on the person I guess.. I'm not saying it isn't possible I'm just saying that you can't expect everything from a guide.

Tbs I don't know how much free time guides have that they aren't doing guide stuff, so it's hard to judge this.

Much love to all guides!
 

ooitsbirdo

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#7
Just as BWOT (rather bluntly) brought up there is a problem in that whilst the skill of an Artist is tested thoroughly via the Artist application process a Guide's skill is not and can thus be an uncertainty for Foremen or Designers asigning them jobs.
Also there would be a problem if Guides were expected to help build on the server because some players seek the rank of Guide just ib order to help the server even if they can't build that well. If Guides were expected to build then these players would be alienated from the comunity.

May I instead suggest that (if possible) players can apply for, and hold several ranks at once? So that a Guide who feel they have good enough building skills can apply for artist as well which eliminates the uncertainty of said Guide's building skills which could otherwise have been problematic for a Foreman or Designer to know.
Same goes for Enforcers who wants to do some building or project leading as well. They can then just apply for the additional rank of Artist, Foreman or Designer if they want. That way they too can proove that they are ready for the tasks they would wish to undertake.


Also, as a side note: In light of the "drama" that happened a while ago I would wish that Enforcers are much, much more transparent in their dealings in general than they have been in the past (that is, the past that I myself have seen).
With Do respect foreman and designers mostly know who is a good builder and not thats what they look out for so guide building skills not being great means there jobs that foreman give will be easier ones , the point is that this will mean that foreman dont have to start jobs for these players and they can work on building, artist rank are tested cause you are expected to build that you ranks focuse, the focuse of the guide rank is to welcome players, the focuse of each rank hasnt shifted, its mainly changing the rank to fit the server purpose to BUILD middle earth

Seems like quite a good idea, though I fear that some guides who'd have the artist rank too, might not be able to do both. I understand that guides want to build, but can they both focus on being guide and artist at the same time? Depends on the person I guess.. I'm not saying it isn't possible I'm just saying that you can't expect everything from a guide.

Tbs I don't know how much free time guides have that they aren't doing guide stuff, so it's hard to judge this.

Much love to all guides!
the reason i bring up this is cause i have help artist rank, and guide rank, and foreman which means i have an experience in all 3. As a guide at the time i was still expected to build cause i was an artist (traitor of course). guides do have a bit of free time, look at @Gary_Baggins he practically lives on the server know, so they have more free time then you think, its just that sometimes demand for tours is sometimes low, so this means we have a rank that doesnt do anything which is pointless , so to combat this giving them building perms so they can build minor things will get a lot more done
 

ryttyr

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#8
Seems like quite a good idea, though I fear that some guides who'd have the artist rank too, might not be able to do both. I understand that guides want to build, but can they both focus on being guide and artist at the same time? Depends on the person I guess.. I'm not saying it isn't possible I'm just saying that you can't expect everything from a guide.

Tbs I don't know how much free time guides have that they aren't doing guide stuff, so it's hard to judge this.

Much love to all guides!
That's exactly why I think it should be optional. Not everyone wants to, or have the time and energy to build stuff.

With Do respect foreman and designers mostly know who is a good builder and not thats what they look out for so guide building skills not being great means there jobs that foreman give will be easier ones , the point is that this will mean that foreman dont have to start jobs for these players and they can work on building, artist rank are tested cause you are expected to build that you ranks focuse, the focuse of the guide rank is to welcome players, the focuse of each rank hasnt shifted, its mainly changing the rank to fit the server purpose to BUILD middle earth



the reason i bring up this is cause i have help artist rank, and guide rank, and foreman which means i have an experience in all 3. As a guide at the time i was still expected to build cause i was an artist (traitor of course). guides do have a bit of free time, look at @Gary_Baggins he practically lives on the server know, so they have more free time then you think, its just that sometimes demand for tours is sometimes low, so this means we have a rank that doesnt do anything which is pointless , so to combat this giving them building perms so they can build minor things will get a lot more done
Is it really such a bad thing that Guides don't help build very often? I mean they're only four people (sadly). Four people out of the sixty with a rank higher than commoner isn't that meny is it?
I'm not criticising your idea to let them build more, I love it. But I feel like you're making it a little too big a problem. Besides, if we take @Gary_Baggins as an example well I don't know how meny dozens of times he have told me that "[he] can't build. At all." and not to be mean to Gary but he's right, a lot is left to be desired with his builds. Now I'm not saying that every Guide is a bad builder, I'm definitely not saying that. Just that not every Guide should have to build.
I can't speak for all Guides but I know that Gary choose the Guide rank just so that he could help the server and the comunity without having to build.
 

Eriol_Eandur

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#9
As I said above the idea to give Guides build perms was discussed before. I like the idea and spoke up for it. But in the discussion another important argument came up which was quite convincing to me:
If Guide would have build perms Designers and Foremen would need to know about the individual building skills of the Guides. This should not be too hard as there are not too many Guides usually, but still it would probably not work well. Why? Because it does not work now. It is just now no problem for Designers not to give building tasks to Guides. They can quickly make a plotbuild for the Guide to build.

It think it would be good to think about why this possibility is (almost) not used instead of thinking about building perms for Guides. Here are some ideas:
  • Guides are not aware of this possibility? (Well, now you know)
  • Designers are to lazy to look up the commands to create a plotbuild? (It's just /plot create <plotbuild_name> -p, then select with WE the area and do /plot new. Finally stand in the plot and do /plot assign <playername>)
  • Designers are not sure about building skills of Guides? (I am not, but I would try to learn. Just want to mention that this is much more effort for Designers that just asking for an approved Artist)
  • Foremen are not allowed to start plotbuilds without staff permission? (Would be no problem to make an exception for this)
I would welcome it a lot if Guides would be more involved in building (according to their skills). But I don't think just giving them build perms will change too much. It would change much more if Guides who want to build would start to ask Designers for tasks.
 

Finrod_Amandil

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#10
Thanks a lot for these suggestions and the discussion ooits! I completely see your point that the minority of Guides and Enforcers are sometimes left out of the daily business of MCME as they can only contribute the building in a very limited way. But I do not think giving Guides unrestricted build permissions and have the ability to take over the easy Artist tasks if they want to. The main arguments in my opinion are:
  • It's unfair towards the Artists. The main reward of passing the Artist Application process is this unlimited building access, they do not gain a lot more perms beside it. And I am not making the application process easy at all, many applicants are having quite a hard time achieving the level I deem necessary. Guide applications may also be tricky on their own, but they also get a set of permissions and tools, which in the recent months was constantly expanded by various plugins.
  • Not all Guides want to build, and officially adding "simple building" to their set of tasks kind of makes people expect you will build something if you have nothing else to do, which may make those Guides that do not want to build a bit uneasy.
  • Guides CAN build, it's agreeably a bit less easy than as an Artist, but if a Guide really wants to build, maybe even more tricky things, he can ask for that and I deem the chance high it will be made possible. Technically it's no problem as most things can be done using the Plotbuild plugin. At this point a big sorry to @TI_020601 about my unsatisfying reaction to your request to lead CoL. My mind hasn't really caught up with the fact that Beat is mostly gone so I was a bit confused about the request. I'll message you soonish (probs later today) so we can discuss a bit about it!
  • There's other things beside leading Tours, Minigames and PVP that Guides can do. One is the organisation of events, sometimes on their own, sometimes with a higher rank included as overhead. I think most Guides are aware of that, but I'd just like to point out that they can announce and execute also events beside the ones that have become somewhat traditional. I know there have been multiple such events, but please note that you're not limited to keep this low and only announce it in the discussions are what not. Reach out to q or an Enforcer and Fireinferno to announce such new events on the main page of the Forums and on Facebook!

    Furthermore I could think of other things Guides can work on over a longer time. I pretty much havent voiced this yet because I had no Guide asking for it it yet. One concrete thing I have on my ToDo-List is the questions for the quiz plugin. Some questions are derpy and those who play it more often may know many of the questions by now. If organized well, maintaining and expanding these questions could be something guides can easily work on also for a short time at once. There probably are other things Guides could take hold off.
  • If a Guide constantly wants to build really badly and still do the Guide things he should apply for Foreman!
Regarding Enforcers: Yes, things need to change and we are still working on it. But I don't think they should get a lot more transparent to the public, infractions are a naturally private matter. They will however have to be more transparent towards the infracting players, laying out clearly why measures have been taken and be open for objections. What we want to make more transparent however is which sorts of actions are counted as infractions and why they are considered not tolerable. The Enforcers are working on revised ToS and we also want to assemble a Guideline to the ToS, explaining the motivations behind the rules that may seem awkward at first.

Regarding Commoners: If the threshold to get promoted is generally seen as too high it would be easy to lower the amount of votes needed. Also, for some reason the rule was established that Adventurers should not ask for votes. I would lift this rule and instead say all those that can vote to only grant the vote, if you think this very player deserved it by being friendly and engaging in the server activities. Asking for votes simply to voice interest in getting the rank should be allowed. It would be a reminder for those who can vote to evaluate whether the player should get the rank or not. I believe the reason why it is hard to gain the votes is because people simply forget about that this is a thing.
 

TI_020601

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#14
Lead is in inverted commas because it means that the word lead is not even taken seriously. In other words SARCASM
I know but I want to find out why he doesn't take it seriously.
 

Tyranystrasz

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#15
I know but I want to find out why he doesn't take it seriously.
M8 the pics you posted on the "application" don't match the requirements for lead a project.
 
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TI_020601

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#16
@Beathaven why are you opposed to the idea, I know you don't like my choice of images so what else?
 

Gary_Baggins

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#17
How about giving Guide build perms for a limited time so we can fix derps, like if we find broken doors instead of asking a designer or artist to tp and fix it designers + could give full access to creative mode for a limited time in minutes the command could be /give [playername] [bp*] [time in minutes] *= build perms.
 

ooitsbirdo

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#18
Thanks a lot for these suggestions and the discussion ooits! I completely see your point that the minority of Guides and Enforcers are sometimes left out of the daily business of MCME as they can only contribute the building in a very limited way. But I do not think giving Guides unrestricted build permissions and have the ability to take over the easy Artist tasks if they want to. The main arguments in my opinion are:
  • It's unfair towards the Artists. The main reward of passing the Artist Application process is this unlimited building access, they do not gain a lot more perms beside it. And I am not making the application process easy at all, many applicants are having quite a hard time achieving the level I deem necessary. Guide applications may also be tricky on their own, but they also get a set of permissions and tools, which in the recent months was constantly expanded by various plugins.
  • Not all Guides want to build, and officially adding "simple building" to their set of tasks kind of makes people expect you will build something if you have nothing else to do, which may make those Guides that do not want to build a bit uneasy.
  • Guides CAN build, it's agreeably a bit less easy than as an Artist, but if a Guide really wants to build, maybe even more tricky things, he can ask for that and I deem the chance high it will be made possible. Technically it's no problem as most things can be done using the Plotbuild plugin. At this point a big sorry to @TI_020601 about my unsatisfying reaction to your request to lead CoL. My mind hasn't really caught up with the fact that Beat is mostly gone so I was a bit confused about the request. I'll message you soonish (probs later today) so we can discuss a bit about it!
  • There's other things beside leading Tours, Minigames and PVP that Guides can do. One is the organisation of events, sometimes on their own, sometimes with a higher rank included as overhead. I think most Guides are aware of that, but I'd just like to point out that they can announce and execute also events beside the ones that have become somewhat traditional. I know there have been multiple such events, but please note that you're not limited to keep this low and only announce it in the discussions are what not. Reach out to q or an Enforcer and Fireinferno to announce such new events on the main page of the Forums and on Facebook!

    Furthermore I could think of other things Guides can work on over a longer time. I pretty much havent voiced this yet because I had no Guide asking for it it yet. One concrete thing I have on my ToDo-List is the questions for the quiz plugin. Some questions are derpy and those who play it more often may know many of the questions by now. If organized well, maintaining and expanding these questions could be something guides can easily work on also for a short time at once. There probably are other things Guides could take hold off.
  • If a Guide constantly wants to build really badly and still do the Guide things he should apply for Foreman!
Regarding Enforcers: Yes, things need to change and we are still working on it. But I don't think they should get a lot more transparent to the public, infractions are a naturally private matter. They will however have to be more transparent towards the infracting players, laying out clearly why measures have been taken and be open for objections. What we want to make more transparent however is which sorts of actions are counted as infractions and why they are considered not tolerable. The Enforcers are working on revised ToS and we also want to assemble a Guideline to the ToS, explaining the motivations behind the rules that may seem awkward at first.

Regarding Commoners: If the threshold to get promoted is generally seen as too high it would be easy to lower the amount of votes needed. Also, for some reason the rule was established that Adventurers should not ask for votes. I would lift this rule and instead say all those that can vote to only grant the vote, if you think this very player deserved it by being friendly and engaging in the server activities. Asking for votes simply to voice interest in getting the rank should be allowed. It would be a reminder for those who can vote to evaluate whether the player should get the rank or not. I believe the reason why it is hard to gain the votes is because people simply forget about that this is a thing.
Im not sure if you answered one of my suggestions which was for enforcers to be part of Build projects as projects staff members you didnt give your opinion on that
 

Finrod_Amandil

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#19
I've got the impression Enforcers mostly are busy enough dealing with Enforcer things, but in case there is an Enforcer able and willing to help with the building process there should always be a possibility for this player to do just that.

And again for Guides not having enough to do and not interacting with anything building related: A while ago the Guidebook plugin was installed. The idea would have been that Guides would enter all the locations into it. Afaik so far only Despot has added a few things in Moria.
 

TI_020601

Hardcore MCME-er
Jul 20, 2016
251
395
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London
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#20
Guides not having enough to do and not interacting with anything building related: A while ago the Guidebook plugin was installed. The idea would have been that Guides would enter all the locations into it.
I did try to add to the plugin but no one could tell me how, not even Eriol and there is no resource for it. So how then am I supposed to know how to add to it?