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Community Project Vote

Stoog_Gaming

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In the last 3 years since I joined this server, 5 projects have been completed, of those 5 projects, only 2 are new locations the other 3 being Revamps.
And of the current active projects all but one of them is a Revamp.

My Solution

I would like to propose a new system for when projects are completed, where the project lead for that project chooses 3 options they would like to lead next.

These choices would include

  • A new location/terrain area
  • A Revamp
  • and one other of their choice
And then they create a poll for the community to decide what they would like to do next.

I believe this will create a much more enthusiastic team of Commoners and Adventurers who would like to help progress these Projects, and would help massively with the stagnation of progress that has been happening for the last 3 years at least.

There may also be changes that need making to my suggestion to make it viable but I believe that this is a step in the right direction.
 
What's wrong with revamps? If you want to have something new get a build rank. I think unless someone is willing to help they maybe shouldn't tell other people what they can and cannot build. Sorry if it sounds blunt but understand this is not the first time this point has been floated lol. When people build here we do not build for the community contrary to most people's beliefs, we build what we are interested in, and being told what to do makes it seem less like something we do for fun.
 
What's wrong with revamps? If you want to have something new get a build rank. I think unless someone is willing to help they maybe shouldn't tell other people what they can and cannot build. Sorry if it sounds blunt but understand this is not the first time this point has been floated lol. When people build here we do not build for the community contrary to most people's beliefs, we build what we are interested in, and being told what to do makes it seem less like something we do for fun.
Certified Wyatt moment
 
What's wrong with revamps? If you want to have something new get a build rank. I think unless someone is willing to help they maybe shouldn't tell other people what they can and cannot build. Sorry if it sounds blunt but understand this is not the first time this point has been floated lol. When people build here we do not build for the community contrary to most people's beliefs, we build what we are interested in, and being told what to do makes it seem less like something we do for fun.

I am not entirely against revamps I simply suggest the project leaders offer a choice of projects they would be interested in building with a choice between new and revamps so that we don't just keep doing revamps because someone thinks that an old location looks bad.

And I am certainly willing to help and I know of several people who help with plots and jobs often who have a similar opinion, I just feel like we should be striving to build in new areas, instead of revamping areas that are already perfectly good for the lay Adventurer.

I don't mean to suggest we stop project leads from choosing what they want to build just giving the community a say and thus more interest in the projects that are being done.
 
I think, and I know a couple people agree about this is, that rather than choosing the next project when one is completed, we should have have a schedule/list for projects in an order and with a timeframe, because that makes it both easier to plan, and gives more motivation to complete projects instead of leaving them hanging forever
 
While I understand the want for more input on projects that get started you must understand some things what limit projects:
Quality
This is basically the general jist of all limiting factors. Mind you non-builders might find quality builds a difficult thing to understand, but they are quite important, not only for improving our own builds, but also staying relevant within the larger minecraft building space. If we do not uphold a certain standard of building we will not attract good builders to come help us out.

- Textures
Some people might think this not to be a big deal, but it is. Textures limit projects being started such as, but not limited to: Erebor, Mordor, Lake town, Gray havens...
If we start a project without the proper textures it will not be up to current standards.
- Terrain
Again a limiting factor. While we have some competent terrain people, it takes a lot of time to make terrain. Our map was originally made in 2014, it's no longer usable for projects made today. Hence we have to redo terrain every time we start a new project.
- Will
People will always have preferences, projects are long term commitments to doing one thing. Projects can last months, to even a year. It will always be important for the people who are leading the project to be willing to commit that time to that specific project. I can not force anyone here to do anything.

With this in mind the list of projects I set up almost 2 years ago was the following:

Safe to start
- Agar and Udul
- Dol Caranthan Tombs
- Anorien town/field fixes/redesigns
- Tharbad
- Beacon fixes/consitency
- Belfalas Forests
- Anorien Forests
- Firien Woods
- Druadan forest
- Anduin rework
- Entwash Trees
- Fenmarch Blending
- No-Man's land terrain
- Carrock terrain
- Andrast terrain
- Mordor world painting
- Misties voxeling/perhaps world painting
- Moria Great Mines
- Moria Crumbling Stairs
- Moria Fellowship Path between Great Mines and East gold
- Moria Fellowship Path between Great Mines and Movie Cave
- Moria redesign Gandalf/balrog cave + khazad dum fall cave
- Moria redo Chamber of Light
- Moria western crossroads (patrick crossroads)
- Moria C1 (Bart dwelling), come up with ideas?
- Moria 21st hall redesign
- Mordor Minas Morgul redesign
- Mordor Black Gate finish
- Mordor Shelob's lair
- Mordor Cirith Ungol
- Gladden fields
- Removal of that parasite in front of Osgiliath
- Moria West Gate touchup
- Terrain around Rivendell touchup

Needs convincing
- Linhir revamp
- Mountains behind Minas Tirith touchup
- Mountains behind Helm's Deep touchup
- Shire revamp planning/concepts
- Goblin Town
- Dol Guldur

Unfortunately while we have progressed on trying to get some areas moved forward to make those limiting factors less of a problem they still exist for now. Until these factors change (eg. release of forest updates) we will be limited in what projects we can start. Honestly right now I can't see that much more added and or removed from the list above. I am always open to project suggestions though in my 4 years as head builder I have not seen many of those.

Currently it is imporant to finish up the projects we have, as we are spread a bit thin right now in terms of project leaders. I do not plan on letting more than one new project start this year. And definitely not before one gets finished up.
 
While I understand the want for more input on projects that get started you must understand some things what limit projects:
Quality
This is basically the general jist of all limiting factors. Mind you non-builders might find quality builds a difficult thing to understand, but they are quite important, not only for improving our own builds, but also staying relevant within the larger minecraft building space. If we do not uphold a certain standard of building we will not attract good builders to come help us out.

- Textures
Some people might think this not to be a big deal, but it is. Textures limit projects being started such as, but not limited to: Erebor, Mordor, Lake town, Gray havens...
If we start a project without the proper textures it will not be up to current standards.
- Terrain
Again a limiting factor. While we have some competent terrain people, it takes a lot of time to make terrain. Our map was originally made in 2014, it's no longer usable for projects made today. Hence we have to redo terrain every time we start a new project.
- Will
People will always have preferences, projects are long term commitments to doing one thing. Projects can last months, to even a year. It will always be important for the people who are leading the project to be willing to commit that time to that specific project. I can not force anyone here to do anything.

With this in mind the list of projects I set up almost 2 years ago was the following:

Safe to start
- Agar and Udul
- Dol Caranthan Tombs
- Anorien town/field fixes/redesigns
- Tharbad
- Beacon fixes/consitency
- Belfalas Forests
- Anorien Forests
- Firien Woods
- Druadan forest
- Anduin rework
- Entwash Trees
- Fenmarch Blending
- No-Man's land terrain
- Carrock terrain
- Andrast terrain
- Mordor world painting
- Misties voxeling/perhaps world painting
- Moria Great Mines
- Moria Crumbling Stairs
- Moria Fellowship Path between Great Mines and East gold
- Moria Fellowship Path between Great Mines and Movie Cave
- Moria redesign Gandalf/balrog cave + khazad dum fall cave
- Moria redo Chamber of Light
- Moria western crossroads (patrick crossroads)
- Moria C1 (Bart dwelling), come up with ideas?
- Moria 21st hall redesign
- Mordor Minas Morgul redesign
- Mordor Black Gate finish
- Mordor Shelob's lair
- Mordor Cirith Ungol
- Gladden fields
- Removal of that parasite in front of Osgiliath
- Moria West Gate touchup
- Terrain around Rivendell touchup

Needs convincing
- Linhir revamp
- Mountains behind Minas Tirith touchup
- Mountains behind Helm's Deep touchup
- Shire revamp planning/concepts
- Goblin Town
- Dol Guldur

Unfortunately while we have progressed on trying to get some areas moved forward to make those limiting factors less of a problem they still exist for now. Until these factors change (eg. release of forest updates) we will be limited in what projects we can start. Honestly right now I can't see that much more added and or removed from the list above. I am always open to project suggestions though in my 4 years as head builder I have not seen many of those.

Currently it is imporant to finish up the projects we have, as we are spread a bit thin right now in terms of project leaders. I do not plan on letting more than one new project start this year. And definitely not before one gets finished up.
Could this list maybe be made more visible on discord to current builders, and commoners, especially artist applicants who might want to try making concepts for future projects?
 
It would certainly be nice to have some direction. A list of possible projects is good but even better would be to have an order and some planning of what we are actually going to do after the wave of current projects would in my view get the community more incentivised than a vote. The build team need to have more of an influence in decision of new projects and a more visible process of choosing projects would allow for this. With a slimmed down build and designer team it is important to use resources effectively and get these projects done first. Ultimately it is down to the build team on what they want to do and as Bart said some of the most popular ideas are not possible right now.
 
There have been several comments left on the community survey this year (as well as last year) expressing growing discontent with regard to the matter of building projects. I will report more fully in due course with findings: when the survey closes and I've had chance to collate the comments people have made. Here are a select few responses related to this issue:

"By requirement. New projects create interest and continue valuable server progress towards our goal. Revamps should only be undertaken if absolutely necessary, and as such must be compared across all other projects completed or otherwise. In-progress projects should take priority."

Regarding last year's survey: "On the other hand, the revamp to new build ratio, arguably one of the most critical talking points and aspects of that poll, has only felt like its gotten worse over time. Make no mistake, that's a massive misstep."

Regarding last year's survey: "most things that involved staff members in all aspects were either not touched on or disregarded. There is a massive divide between what the Valar are doing and what the direction of MCME is which is making everything unsure. A game plan is needed to try and get everyone working on one thing."

"Basically it sent the message of "community build server ignores its community to do what a select few people want". Really not a good look to have."


I agree that there are indeed limitations on what projects can and cannot be started. Terrain being the foremost. However, the fact that these same limitations have been mentioned for the 4 years I've been here clearly points to something else being wrong on MCME.

I've said before and I'll say again: blaming lack of progress on "we don't have the textures" is not an acceptable excuse for new things not happening in my view (I'm sure people are sick of hearing me say it). Textures are ready whenever they're done, it's not fair to blame the texture team for the lack of new things. That attitude will only lead to waiting on yet more textures and more stagnation, because people will always ask for more. We already have a lot of blocks to work with and new things can (and have) been done with them: Harlond, Lond Daer, Pelennor, current Anorien prove it. If the build team cannot build new things with what we have currently, then they should consider stepping down. I appreciate I'm being blunt, but 4 years with few little new things happening isn't exactly inspiring. I've not sat complaining that I've not got waterloggable slabs of the correct colours in the Anduin work I've been doing. I've just got on with it.

On the topic Stoog raises: I'd much rather see a long term plan that clearly provides variety for MCME members with both new projects and updating of older areas. I feel wider voting might be appropriate for very small scale projects: e.g. a choice between Beorn's House and Rhosgobel, or some fishing villages vs a terrain piece at Agar/Udul.
 
I very much agree with you here Stephen. When I first posted my suggestion it was with the intent to bring some discussion to this topic, and try and reach a solution we can all agree on.

And having seen everyone's comments I do think having a publicly available roadmap of projects would be a great idea.
 
There have been several comments left on the community survey this year (as well as last year) expressing growing discontent with regard to the matter of building projects. I will report more fully in due course with findings: when the survey closes and I've had chance to collate the comments people have made. Here are a select few responses related to this issue:

"By requirement. New projects create interest and continue valuable server progress towards our goal. Revamps should only be undertaken if absolutely necessary, and as such must be compared across all other projects completed or otherwise. In-progress projects should take priority."

Regarding last year's survey: "On the other hand, the revamp to new build ratio, arguably one of the most critical talking points and aspects of that poll, has only felt like its gotten worse over time. Make no mistake, that's a massive misstep."

Regarding last year's survey: "most things that involved staff members in all aspects were either not touched on or disregarded. There is a massive divide between what the Valar are doing and what the direction of MCME is which is making everything unsure. A game plan is needed to try and get everyone working on one thing."

"Basically it sent the message of "community build server ignores its community to do what a select few people want". Really not a good look to have."


I agree that there are indeed limitations on what projects can and cannot be started. Terrain being the foremost. However, the fact that these same limitations have been mentioned for the 4 years I've been here clearly points to something else being wrong on MCME.

I've said before and I'll say again: blaming lack of progress on "we don't have the textures" is not an acceptable excuse for new things not happening in my view (I'm sure people are sick of hearing me say it). Textures are ready whenever they're done, it's not fair to blame the texture team for the lack of new things. That attitude will only lead to waiting on yet more textures and more stagnation, because people will always ask for more. We already have a lot of blocks to work with and new things can (and have) been done with them: Harlond, Lond Daer, Pelennor, current Anorien prove it. If the build team cannot build new things with what we have currently, then they should consider stepping down. I appreciate I'm being blunt, but 4 years with few little new things happening isn't exactly inspiring. I've not sat complaining that I've not got waterloggable slabs of the correct colours in the Anduin work I've been doing. I've just got on with it.

On the topic Stoog raises: I'd much rather see a long term plan that clearly provides variety for MCME members with both new projects and updating of older areas. I feel wider voting might be appropriate for very small scale projects: e.g. a choice between Beorn's House and Rhosgobel, or some fishing villages vs a terrain piece at Agar/Udul.
I'd like to point out that all the projects that you point to for things we can work on with current textures are all revamps.
 
I agree that there are indeed limitations on what projects can and cannot be started. Terrain being the foremost. However, the fact that these same limitations have been mentioned for the 4 years I've been here clearly points to something else being wrong on MCME.
I've said before and I'll say again: blaming lack of progress on "we don't have the textures" is not an acceptable excuse for new things not happening in my view (I'm sure people are sick of hearing me say it). Textures are ready whenever they're done, it's not fair to blame the texture team for the lack of new things. That attitude will only lead to waiting on yet more textures and more stagnation, because people will always ask for more.

These limitations will remain in place, for however long MCME does things the way MCME does, on it's own. We do not use someone else's resource pack, or pay someone to make things for us. Our progress is entirely driven by volunteers, which is always going to limit the pace of progress. We will never contract others to build any part of the map for us.

Forest update has taken longer than anyone here expected it to, but I have never told anyone to not start a forest because of it, as we can make forests with our current textures. We can not make things like Erebor with 3? green blocks. We can not make Lake Town with 2? wood colors. We can not simply make Mordor without a proper palette. That's the reality. Should we have instead focused on the Mordor pack over the Forest update? Most likely yes, but we really can't change that at this point.

We expected more progress on the Mordor pack to get done than it did, Toti did do a bit of parallel progress on both packs, since the last couple of months he has focused soley on the Forest Update, as it is getting close to completion. I don't think anyone would suggest him to drop that right now and continue the Mordor pack.

I'll personally say I would have liked to have a Mordor pack here today, but I don't believe we can blame anyone for it, because all the people that tried tried.

We already have a lot of blocks to work with and new things can (and have) been done with them: Harlond, Lond Daer, Pelennor, current Anorien prove it.
All 4 of these are (technically) revamps, not new locations requiring (many) new textures. Furthermore they kind of got some new textures (Lond Daer update, Cair Andros update).


If the build team cannot build new things with what we have currently, then they should consider stepping down. I appreciate I'm being blunt, but 4 years with few little new things happening isn't exactly inspiring. I've not sat complaining that I've not got waterloggable slabs of the correct colours in the Anduin work I've been doing. I've just got on with it.
I don't really agree with asking people to step down over them not having the tools to do some things. I must also add I have not had a single person come to me and tell me they want to make Mordor with the current textures. I find it very hard to follow this argument of we don't need the textures. I'd happily see any concepts show me wrong that things like Mordor can be built.

Sure there are some new places that can be started, I gave some examples in my post above. Someone starting those projects at this moment is not what we're looking for to be clear, like I said we've got a bit too many projects atm, but whether one starts in the future is really up to a builder taking it up, I will not force anyone to do something.
 
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There have been several comments left on the community survey this year (as well as last year) expressing growing discontent with regard to the matter of building projects. I will report more fully in due course with findings: when the survey closes and I've had chance to collate the comments people have made. Here are a select few responses related to this issue:

"By requirement. New projects create interest and continue valuable server progress towards our goal. Revamps should only be undertaken if absolutely necessary, and as such must be compared across all other projects completed or otherwise. In-progress projects should take priority."

Regarding last year's survey: "On the other hand, the revamp to new build ratio, arguably one of the most critical talking points and aspects of that poll, has only felt like its gotten worse over time. Make no mistake, that's a massive misstep."

Regarding last year's survey: "most things that involved staff members in all aspects were either not touched on or disregarded. There is a massive divide between what the Valar are doing and what the direction of MCME is which is making everything unsure. A game plan is needed to try and get everyone working on one thing."

"Basically it sent the message of "community build server ignores its community to do what a select few people want". Really not a good look to have."

Hi !

I have been reading the survey answers too. And I see a trend of more passive aggressive feedback. Things as; Active leadership, The actual possibility of finished projects. as an answers to the question what would make you more likely to join in with the building on MCME. Now I get there is frustration of not being able to do that project you wanted to see / or help build when you joined the server.
But we got to realize something here. There is not a single person in staff or among the Valar that will say that they do not want to be able to jump to new projects. And that is what I believe sometimes gets confused when we seem to be endlessly working on the same projects. Projects take time to being finished especially with the level of detail we put out nowadays. Starting new projects while leaving others unfinished is something we cannot do. We only have this amount of designers that can oversee this many projects. Reminds me of Bilbo's quote about something with bread and butter.

I agree with the points on revamps. As many of you know I am a massive fan of revamps. But there is an issue when people demand new projects, and a big portion of the available new projects are revamps due to either not having textures or the terrain for other area's. Also there is an almost equally large portion of the active build team that wants revamps like shire/rivendell/bree/rohan/tharbad.

Regarding "most things involved staff members in all aspects were either not touched on our disregarded". I can not comment on since without examples of what is being said here I do not know what has not been touched. I mean we had a staff meeting after the survey last year a team meeting and a community meeting discussing the things that came forward. And addressing the things we would be working on. I guess we could have missed something but nothing was left undiscussed.

"A game plan to try and get everyone working on one thing" sounds fantastic but what does it mean? Arent we already working on the same thing? Our game plan has not changed in the last 12 years. Building Middle Earth. We are trying to work our way to reach that goal according to the Fellowships path.

Basically it sent the message of "community build server ignores its community to do what a select few people want". Really not a good look to have.
I wonder who this select group is that ignores the community, because I got to make sure to contact them to tell them what I have always wanted.

All jokes aside, I get that its frustrating to not see any visible progress on the things you are specifically looking forward too (trust me I understand after wanting to build Mordor since 2012). But not getting what you want does not mean you are ignored. It does come across a bit self entitled. We all want the same thing to see this project going forward and reaching is destination however not everyone agrees on the means of how we get there. And that is fair, there will always be different roads to reach it. But this is the path that we currently think is best to take. You do not have to agree with it, but without providing a valid alternative I have no means to address it and thus can not treat it seriously.

I agree that there are indeed limitations on what projects can and cannot be started. Terrain being the foremost. However, the fact that these same limitations have been mentioned for the 4 years I've been here clearly points to something else being wrong on MCME.

As you mentioned already terrain is a big factor in what limits us. But by far not the biggest. Textures yes they limit us too. Making plans and concepts is possible and in some cases has already been begun. But making of actual concepts requires a couple things. Terrain, textures and someone willing to make them. Our biggest limiting factor in my opinion is and always has been the amount of people that can produce projects with the now required level of quality. Whether that project is terrain, textures or concepts it all leads down to the same missing part manpower.

I've said before and I'll say again: blaming lack of progress on "we don't have the textures" is not an acceptable excuse for new things not happening in my view (I'm sure people are sick of hearing me say it). Textures are ready whenever they're done, it's not fair to blame the texture team for the lack of new things. That attitude will only lead to waiting on yet more textures and more stagnation, because people will always ask for more. We already have a lot of blocks to work with and new things can (and have) been done with them: Harlond, Lond Daer, Pelennor, current Anorien prove it.
I can see why you think textures is the big issue. Since it is probably the most mentioned one when it comes to new projects. And I agree that is not fair to stagnate while waiting on blocks when we already have so many. But that only counts for a region like Gondor. For a region like Mordor we are not waiting for some blocks people want to see added, we are waiting for an entire texture pack. So yes I would agree that if you are working in Gondor or another Human RP region you should be able to continue to work with the blocks that are already provided. But as soon as you leave those area's not mentioning the entire overhaul of vegetation we will be receiving with the forest update, the resources and possibilities in terms of what we have with blocks and the quality that we want to reach become far estranged.

If the build team cannot build new things with what we have currently, then they should consider stepping down. I appreciate I'm being blunt, but 4 years with few little new things happening isn't exactly inspiring. I've not sat complaining that I've not got waterloggable slabs of the correct colours in the Anduin work I've been doing. I've just got on with it.
This I find rather a strange argument after you mentioned the new things like Harlond, Lond Daer etc, just a sentence before. The past 4 years the quality and detail of builds has risen tremendously, because of the new blocks, and because of the standards that was raised by Bart. And yes that leads to projects taking a significantly larger amount of time. Caused by limited amount of people that can produce to said standard.
Also it is hard to compare not having different colors of waterlogged slabs, to the amount of textures required to build Erebor/Mordor/Elven stuff/Hobbit stuff/Shire. Yes we have basic black blocks, and yes we have a "dwarven pack" but the difference between Moria and Erebor does not require explanation, I assume.

We can build some of those highly anticipated area's to the standards we had over 4 years ago yes likely. By the time they would be finished, textures would likely be out, and we would be stuck revamping them.

When I started on this server, there was no waiting for textures, we just planned and build. Whenever there was a new update of textures (or method of building) we ended up redoing the builds, Bree being a prime example. Projects got pumped out a bit faster back in those days with the results visible today. Only a few builds stood the test of time and dodged the revamps. But not a single one has not seen change since it got build. Now one can argue that method was better or worse compared to how we work nowadays. But I am of the opinion that producing the highest quality that we can achieve should always be aimed for. Because only then will it stand the test of time.

To conclude, we all want the same thing. We all would love to see Mordor finished, we all want to see the Hobbit stuff being build. And yes most of us would love to see Gondor finally finished. We are 100% on the same team. We also got to remember we are all spending our free time here, some have more free time then others. And as Bart mentioned we can not force anyone to do anything. We purely rely on the hard work and dedication of those that volunteer to do the work let us not forget that. And let us not forget we are on the same team and help each other finish the projects that we started. Take up that responsibility and help out.
Because only once we finish ongoing projects will we be able to move on to newer things.

Keep that butter equally spread. Let us cook.

With love,

Credoo
 
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I disgree with your points and will adress them here.

But we got to realize something here. There is not a single person in staff or among the Valar that will say that they do not want to be able to jump to new projects. And that is what I believe sometimes gets confused when we seem to be endlessly working on the same projects. Projects take time to being finished especially with the level of detail we put out nowadays.
Then show it. The fact that you receive this kind of feedback from a significant part of the community on server that is supposed to be a community server, should demonstrate to you that something is deeply wrong with the way how it functions or at least with how you present yourselves and communicate to the community. Telling people you want to improve but not actually do anything but saying it, makes you seem very disingenuous.

Starting new projects while leaving others unfinished is something we cannot do.
And yet you do do it. Hypr rushed the finishing of the Carrock and surrounding area, making it look half finished. Cair Andros has keeled over and died, Moria East has been gathering dust for nearly a year now, not to speak about Belfalas and Anorien for nearly two years. You continuely let new projects start while leaving others unfinished, you don't search for replacement, you don't ensure further progress, you just let it sit around. You don't lead, you don't motivae, you don't plan, you don't recruit: all this demonstrates you don't know what proper leadership entails. You let project leaders screw around and when they leave, you ignore what they have build or wipe the slate clean and not do anything with it.

Regarding "most things involved staff members in all aspects were either not touched on our disregarded". I can not comment on since without examples of what is being said here I do not know what has not been touched. I mean we had a staff meeting after the survey last year a team meeting and a community meeting discussing the things that came forward. And addressing the things we would be working on. I guess we could have missed something but nothing was left undiscussed.
Again this is a problem I have pointed out above, you discuss it but then don't anything with it. You sit around, discuss it among yourselves but communicate nothing to the community. That causes this respons, that is what causes this kind of feedback. You don't demonstrate that you have actually listened except by telling people, which is insufficient.

A game plan to try and get everyone working on one thing" sounds fantastic but what does it mean? Arent we already working on the same thing? Our game plan has not changed in the last 12 years. Building Middle Earth. We are trying to work our way to reach that goal according to the Fellowships path.
I am sorry, but that is not a plan. It is a goal, not a plan. Bart's list isn't a plan either, it is mild suggestion. A plan for a map this big, for a community is large should be far more detailed than that. The fact that you haven't come up with anything in 12 years, demonstrates a lack of leadership and vision. And just finishing the Fellowship path is also not a plan, it is again a goal.

But not getting what you want does not mean you are ignored. It does come across a bit self entitled. We all want the same thing to see this project going forward and reaching is destination however not everyone agrees on the means of how we get there. And that is fair, there will always be different roads to reach it. But this is the path that we currently think is best to take. You do not have to agree with it, but without providing a valid alternative I have no means to address it and thus can not treat it seriously.
Maybe you should think about what the person actually means with that sentence. They never said that they themselves felt ignored, they said that they feel the community as a whole gets ignored. That is a crucial difference. Again if you get this kind of feedback on a community server, i.e. the community feels ignored, that maybe should be a sign that you are doing something wrong. Also the point with providing an alternative, what do you mean with that? The person with that quote has given you an alternative: start listening properly to the community. And even then, that is not their responsiblity, they are not the ones who have the power and ability to change things, you are, you are the leaders of this server. Solving problems is your responsibility.

As you mentioned already terrain is a big factor in what limits us. But by far not the biggest. Textures yes they limit us too. Making plans and concepts is possible and in some cases has already been begun. But making of actual concepts requires a couple things. Terrain, textures and someone willing to make them. Our biggest limiting factor in my opinion is and always has been the amount of people that can produce projects with the now required level of quality. Whether that project is terrain, textures or concepts it all leads down to the same missing part manpower.
This can be solved easily, again with having a proper plan. We have a sufficient workforce, we just spread them out like mad. Select a couple (as in two, three or four) projects people can work on and the workforce isn't as spread out as it is now. Letting people do what they want and the only requirement is that they need to convince bart, is inefficient. It spreads out the workforce and makes it that only really two people are ever really active on a project, which burns those people out and limiting our workforce even more. Yes we work on a volunteer force, that doesn't mean they don't requite leadership or structure. And if people don't want to work on the active projects, they can always go and build their own things in freebuild.

I can see why you think textures is the big issue. Since it is probably the most mentioned one when it comes to new projects. And I agree that is not fair to stagnate while waiting on blocks when we already have so many. But that only counts for a region like Gondor. For a region like Mordor we are not waiting for some blocks people want to see added, we are waiting for an entire texture pack. So yes I would agree that if you are working in Gondor or another Human RP region you should be able to continue to work with the blocks that are already provided. But as soon as you leave those area's not mentioning the entire overhaul of vegetation we will be receiving with the forest update, the resources and possibilities in terms of what we have with blocks and the quality that we want to reach become far estranged.
I disagree, the vast majority of the server can be build up in what we have rp-wise. We have swathes of Eriador, large parts of Rhovanion, The whole of Rhun and even Harad and Umbar could be done with the blocks we have and the quality we now hold ourselves too. Other servers and other build manages it with far less blocks and texture alterations than we, yet somehow we are the only ones not building in certain areas because we don't have the blocks. Let the build team be creative, let them come up with solutions. If a builder has to sit around waiting on a certain texture, then I am sorry but they aren't worth their salt. Especially if we are supposed to uphold a certain quality: a builder that can't build with constraints, is not going to be able to deliver that good a build without constraints. It is not as difficult as you make it out to seem. And I am saying this as someone who is only a decent builder, certainly not one of the best on the server.

The past 4 years the quality and detail of builds has risen tremendously, because of the new blocks, and because of the standards that was raised by Bart. And yes that leads to projects taking a significantly larger amount of time. Caused by limited amount of people that can produce to said standard.
I disagree with this. A big part of projects not being as quick is also in part to blame because people were told to wait for better textures: do I need to remind you of Anorien that set untouched for years because we were all waiting on the mythical forest update, same with Belfalas. ''Ah don't finish it now, wait for the forest update, that will gives us better quality''. And thus the project sits there, being unfinished for an unacceptable long time, especially for a server who claims not to start new projects while there are unfinished ones.

We also got to remember we are all spending our free time here, some have more free time then others. And as Bart mentioned we can not force anyone to do anything. We purely rely on the hard work and dedication of those that volunteer to do the work let us not forget that. And let us not forget we are on the same team and help each other finish the projects that we started. Take up that responsibility and help out.
Yes we are volunteers. That doesn't mean that volunteers can't use structure and leadership. You can't indeed force people, but as the leaders in this server you can motivatie, you can recruit, you can streamline, you can oversee and you can guide: with other words, you can lead. Take up your own responsibility, which the community obviously doesn't see you doing considering the feedback you get, before you tell others to do so. Because you fail to do so, as can be seen in a post above in which a Head Builder of a community server publicly tells a large part of thay community that they possibly can't understand what a good build is, because they don't have the right rank.


with regards,
Rudolphius
 
Hi Rudo,

Since you seem to be addressing me in your post I will try to reply accordingly.
Then show it. The fact that you receive this kind of feedback from a significant part of the community on server that is supposed to be a community server, should demonstrate to you that something is deeply wrong with the way how it functions or at least with how you present yourselves and communicate to the community. Telling people you want to improve but not actually do anything but saying it, makes you seem very disingenuous.
So far there are 51 replies to the community survey. There is a small portion that is negative about the current goings if not plain aggressive. However small that portion is or significant you feel it is. I think its safe to say it needs to be addressed. However the hijacking of this thread is not the best option for that but I will let it slide, since I find it more beneficial to solve this argument or to come to some form of agreement then to prolong it.
I'm not going to deny our communication has some issues. I can remember it being a staff meeting agenda point for way too many times. I always try to communicate what I am working on or what I am doing as clear as possible and expect that from everyone else. But yes I can agree it is always something to improve on. I'm not entirely sure what your point is with the way I represent myself on the server. I try to be as approachable as I can be to discuss anything that bothers people. And addressing the issues as best as I can. Wanting something and doing something are indeed two separate things. It saddens me that I personally cannot fulfil all the promises I make. But that is a more personal note due to lack of time, energy and in some occasions motivation.

Again this is a problem I have pointed out above, you discuss it but then don't anything with it. You sit around, discuss it among yourselves but communicate nothing to the community. That causes this respons, that is what causes this kind of feedback. You don't demonstrate that you have actually listened except by telling people, which is insufficient.

We discussed it and addressed the things we could. We discussed those results with the community that is public to see. We compiled a document with the findings including the aims/goals Commoner survey 2022 findings . That also includes the raw data from the survey. Scrolling trough the aims and goals section I don't see anything we did not try to address. I will post the list of the goals and aims that came out of the survey from 2022 that was publicly discussed and can be publicly found in the document linked above. I'm not sure how else I can demonstrate that we try to take feedback seriously.
  • Try to achieve 2 build days a year at minimum We achieved that.
  • Try to aim for a job per week. I believe our lovely forepeople got that covered.
  • More tutorials, with a high priority on the dwarven pack and trees. We are pushing out more build tutorial video’s sadly still need more dwarven pack video’s.
  • Promoting the texture tutorials more! Could use more
  • Try to incentivise people more to help out with textures. Make texturing fun again! Textures, anyone?
  • PVP at least once a week, and make sure to notify in advance. I think pvp is run quite often not sure how we are about notifying in advance
  • Minigames at least once a week ,and make sure to notify in advance. Same thing as above
  • Tours once a week, and make sure to notify in advance. <3 guides and tour badge holders
  • Keep using discord as the central information hub. Yup
  • Keep bringing out the times as is. Its even better now in my opinion
  • Create a “better’ new player experience Actively being worked on
  • Improve voting in non european time zones Is addressed could use some improvement.
  • Focus on build events We actively look for possible build events when having projects.
  • Try and focus on finishing the map over revamps. Trying our hardest but could be improved as always.
Definitely room to improve in some areas but you cant claim we have not done anything with the feedback that is just not truthful.

I am sorry, but that is not a plan. It is a goal, not a plan. Bart's list isn't a plan either, it is mild suggestion. A plan for a map this big, for a community is large should be far more detailed than that. The fact that you haven't come up with anything in 12 years, demonstrates a lack of leadership and vision. And just finishing the Fellowship path is also not a plan, it is again a goal.
I'm sorry do you read the project forums? I can say back in the days there was a bit less formal way of doing planning. Like drawing maps for projects on napkins. To making dynamap screenshots and putting it through paint. The planning nowadays is a tad more detailed. In terms of roadmap for overall server progress it is a bit more vague as it relies on people's availability. I know there is a high demand for a roadmap of the server, but I'm afraid we can't make it any more accurate then what we have. Forest update > Mordor Textures > Mordor?!?. Hehe there is nothing wrong with our vision just sometimes with how we can achieve the things we want to see. As I mentioned in my previous post the biggest thing holding us back from starting new projects is capable people willing to do the work. And yes in 12 years I have seen many ups and downs regarding this. Luckily it was not my responsibility during all these years. For detailed project plans I would advise you go to the forums for a vision I can only say yes we have our visions, as everyone does. My time of getting down to the nitty gritty part of projects is mostly over, my task now entail addressing concerns from the community among other things.

In short we try to communicate broad plans when we are certain of implementation. Road mapping is something we can look into again. But it remains quite vague due to the nature that we would have to rely on people being and remaining active.

Basically it sent the message of "community build server ignores its community to do what a select few people want". Really not a good look to have.
I wonder who this select group is that ignores the community, because I got to make sure to contact them to tell them what I have always wanted.

All jokes aside, I get that its frustrating to not see any visible progress on the things you are specifically looking forward too (trust me I understand after wanting to build Mordor since 2012). But not getting what you want does not mean you are ignored. It does come across a bit self entitled. We all want the same thing to see this project going forward and reaching is destination however not everyone agrees on the means of how we get there. And that is fair, there will always be different roads to reach it. But this is the path that we currently think is best to take. You do not have to agree with it, but without providing a valid alternative I have no means to address it and thus can not treat it seriously.
Maybe you should think about what the person actually means with that sentence. They never said that they themselves felt ignored, they said that they feel the community as a whole gets ignored. That is a crucial difference. Again if you get this kind of feedback on a community server, i.e. the community feels ignored, that maybe should be a sign that you are doing something wrong. Also the point with providing an alternative, what do you mean with that? The person with that quote has given you an alternative: start listening properly to the community. And even then, that is not their responsiblity, they are not the ones who have the power and ability to change things, you are, you are the leaders of this server. Solving problems is your responsibility.
They feel ignored, and they feel that the entire community is being ignored, and they think we (the select few) do what we want. First and foremost I'm sad they feel ignored, and even more sad that I have to read it through an anonymous survey instead of it being directly addressed. But luckily we have the opportunity to do that now. Yes it feels like I do something wrong when someone feels ignored.

Regarding an alternative I mean we have a goal to finish this map. We the select few chose this way to go about it, is it the best way probably not, is it the best way we have right now, I believe so. If there is an alternative way please enlighten us.

This is me listening to the community, I don't know how else to approach it. If you think of a better way please tell me. I will gladly listen or read your suggestions instead of you repeating I do not listen. But I don't blame you for that since you are frustrated.

If you have an issue you can address it by bringing it forward. Or you can keep it to yourself. I can only address what issues are brought forward to me and the one's I am personally aware of. Sadly I can't read minds yet. So yes it is my responsibility but only once I am aware of it. Although sometimes I would love to solve issues before others are even aware of it, maybe I will have to wait until Elon Musk's brain chip is finally on the market.
Yes we are volunteers. That doesn't mean that volunteers can't use structure and leadership. You can't indeed force people, but as the leaders in this server you can motivatie, you can recruit, you can streamline, you can oversee and you can guide: with other words, you can lead. Take up your own responsibility, which the community obviously doesn't see you doing considering the feedback you get, before you tell others to do so. Because you fail to do so, as can be seen in a post above in which a Head Builder of a community server publicly tells a large part of thay community that they possibly can't understand what a good build is, because they don't have the right rank.
You keep talking about this leadership, yet you fail to take any responsibility as being part of the build team you slander so much. I went over the recruitment, I believe I went over the motivation. I believe there will always be criticism on the way I personally do or handle things with the community. I can not please everyone nor do I aim to. My ultimate goal is to do what I believe is best for the server. The ways I tried to achieve that have been criticised in the past and sometimes rightfully so. But trust me I do my best to listen to the concern you and the rest of the community voice and I try to address them as best as I can.
Bart is just like you frustrated. And in your frustration you can type things that come across as plain rude. Whether you mean it or not. I am a little frustrated too, I cant deny that.

However as you stated before I have my responsibilities. As I mentioned I am willing to listen to concerns, I'm willing to look for solutions. I will ask that you go about voicing your issues and concerns a little more respectfully. We all have dedicated our time to this project over the various years. There is no point in being condescending or rude to anyone while having a discussion no matter how frustrated you are. Even if you feel the other person is being rude or condescending. Don't forget we are all working on the same thing. If you can no longer see that then I do not know what keeps you here any longer.

I am listening to the concerns I will try to address the ones I mentioned. If you have suggestions please bring them up.

- I edited my post and deleted some messages overlapping Bart his reply. As Bart stated he will answer build related questions/concerns while I will try to address the community aspect of it.
 
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Please note I apperantly wrote this at the same time as Credoo, hence the two replies. I'll post mine anyways as it'll give you insight on my own words too, I did remove some parts of my response that Credoo also adressed. We will try to seperate our responses from here on as Credoo is mostly concerned regarding the community survey, myself regarding building. Feel free to focus any replies or questions regarding those subjects to the respective person.

Then show it. The fact that you receive this kind of feedback from a significant part of the community on server that is supposed to be a community server, should demonstrate to you that something is deeply wrong with the way how it functions or at least with how you present yourselves and communicate to the community. Telling people you want to improve but not actually do anything but saying it, makes you seem very disingenuous.
Again this is a problem I have pointed out above, you discuss it but then don't anything with it. You sit around, discuss it among yourselves but communicate nothing to the community. That causes this respons, that is what causes this kind of feedback. You don't demonstrate that you have actually listened except by telling people, which is insufficient.
First of all this is the first time we have gotten this feedback effectively communicated. Sure in last year's community survey this issue has been mentioned by some, but so had many other things and many had not mentioned it at all. I have been contacted 0 times by you regarding this topic, and quite frankly 0 times by anyone else. I am not sure how many people find this a problem, a total of 5-6 have been liking some of these posts. I assume there's more people out there. The lack of communication is clearly not only from our side, if such a large portion of the community has a large problem yet has never reached out to me. If insight is the problem, ask me questions, don't presume things. Raise concerns, so we can together look for a solution. Hopefully I can provide some insight into some of them with my responses.

And yet you do do it. Hypr rushed the finishing of the Carrock and surrounding area, making it look half finished. Cair Andros has keeled over and died, Moria East has been gathering dust for nearly a year now, not to speak about Belfalas and Anorien for nearly two years. You continuely let new projects start while leaving others unfinished, you don't search for replacement, you don't ensure further progress, you just let it sit around. You don't lead, you don't motivae, you don't plan, you don't recruit: all this demonstrates you don't know what proper leadership entails. You let project leaders screw around and when they leave, you ignore what they have build or wipe the slate clean and not do anything with it.
I'll list my current plans for these projects here:
  • Carrock/surrounding area has people that will finish it up. (Namely myself and Rwyland). Hyper did not leave it in a half finished state, as a matter of fact the scope of the project was made larger and he has finished that too.
  • Moria East Gate was a misstep for sure, I will likely remove the work done there as I don't forsee anyone wanting to take it over from where it is now.
  • Cair Andros I am actively looking for someone to take up, I did not expect the project to be as difficult as it has been.
  • Belfalas Forest always has been waiting as long as other parts of Gondor were unifished as it seems low priority. I have not pushed anyone to start it for that reason. I did never block anyone from doing it because of forest update. I assume people were not overly excited to do it because of Forest Update though, I'll give you that. Never too exciting to work on a project knowing you'll get a completely overhauled way of doing it at some point in the future.
  • Anorien is being worked on by Rwyland. I am so far very happy with how that is progressing. I agree that Drao was not able to lead the project effectively, and it took me way too long to act on that. I'd mainly thank a couple Designers for talking to me and pushing for someone else to take over that project. At this moment in time I am very happy with it though.

Both me and Toti have had to put our focus on textures for long periods, Toti releasing every single texture update to the Human pack and merging Gondor and Eriador. Myself I have lead updating the Dwarven pack. We did both of these things to ensure work of quality could continue. Within Moria we have very little to no problems with textures. Within Gondor itself we at this point, outside of forest update, have very little to no problems with textures. Sadly we have not been able to give the same treatment to every other place on the map.

To adress some of the concerns regarding my sole oversight into projects I set up region leads which was announced a few months ago. I am also more actively giving feedback to project and region leads when needed.

This can be solved easily, again with having a proper plan. We have a sufficient workforce, we just spread them out like mad. Select a couple (as in two, three or four) projects people can work on and the workforce isn't as spread out as it is now. Letting people do what they want and the only requirement is that they need to convince bart, is inefficient. It spreads out the workforce and makes it that only really two people are ever really active on a project, which burns those people out and limiting our workforce even more. Yes we work on a volunteer force, that doesn't mean they don't requite leadership or structure. And if people don't want to work on the active projects, they can always go and build their own things in freebuild.
This is happening already as stated by my post(s) above, we're not planning on starting any new projects this year, hopefully we'll finish some up. This idea was brought to up to me in a conversation with me and Rwyland and I agreed with him. We had started too many projects at the same time over the last year(s) and that has not worked out, now we're focussing on finishing those up. We do not plan to have every Designer assigned to a single project, that practice clearly does not work out at this point in time. Instead we'll base our amount of projects off of the progress of ongoing projects, to ensure no projects die out. I estimate to reduce the amount of ongoing projects to 3-4 over the next year. I agree we should have communicated this more openly.

I disagree, the vast majority of the server can be build up in what we have rp-wise. We have swathes of Eriador, large parts of Rhovanion, The whole of Rhun and even Harad and Umbar could be done with the blocks we have and the quality we now hold ourselves too. Other servers and other build manages it with far less blocks and texture alterations than we, yet somehow we are the only ones not building in certain areas because we don't have the blocks. Let the build team be creative, let them come up with solutions. If a builder has to sit around waiting on a certain texture, then I am sorry but they aren't worth their salt. Especially if we are supposed to uphold a certain quality: a builder that can't build with constraints, is not going to be able to deliver that good a build without constraints. It is not as difficult as you make it out to seem. And I am saying this as someone who is only a decent builder, certainly not one of the best on the server.
I agree with some parts here. Rhovanion I have been looking towards as the next area to work towards, this region has become more and more achievable with updates to the Human RP. If not Mordor future projects will likely be located in Rhovanion. Eriador I am hessitant to go into. If you're refering to doing western Eriador I'd prefer to do that with some Elven textures to be honest, but I would consider it. If you're refering to the currently finished area of Eriador I think that only makes sense to then start from Hobbiton, which I'd consider, but I'd need some very convincing plans.

I disagree with Harad being able to be started, I don't think we can do justice with our current pack. A Harad pack update would not be a tremendous amount of work, as we have quite a few textures that would work with it now, especially after the Linhir update, but it would be nessecary. I'd be shown convinced otherwise though, but I doubt we'll work in this direction, rather opting for Rhovanion at the moment.

Rhun I don't want to think about before we've got Mordor in progress. In general I dislike starting projects that are not connected to recent stuff. Rhun isn't even connected to anything so it's even more awkward. We could probably texture wise do a decent job at Rhun, perhaps a small Linhir-update sized update if anything.

Yes we are volunteers. That doesn't mean that volunteers can't use structure and leadership. You can't indeed force people, but as the leaders in this server you can motivatie, you can recruit, you can streamline, you can oversee and you can guide: with other words, you can lead. Take up your own responsibility, which the community obviously doesn't see you doing considering the feedback you get, before you tell others to do so. Because you fail to do so, as can be seen in a post above in which a Head Builder of a community server publicly tells a large part of thay community that they possibly can't understand what a good build is, because they don't have the right rank.
We take our responsiblity based on feedback provided to us, for example me and Toti are under the impression of textures being a big problem:

If we're talking 4 years ago at the time we had practically 0 mordor textures and a completely outdated Gondor pack, Dwarven pack, Eriador pack. Toti with the help of many others has reworked the Gondor pack completely and completed imporant parts of the URPS (Unified Resource Pack System) which was thought out under Finrod stil, merging the Gondor pack and the Eriador pack together. Additionally Toti and others have significantly inreased the amount of textures and models in the pack. Adding many of the systems we could not build without nowadays. Furthermore I myself and others have completely reworked the Dwarven RP to similarly come up to a usuable standard.

Clearly both me and Toti have put in significant work to adress what we believe to be a major hurdles. We will continue to do so.

Finally I responded to Stephen who said that members of the build team should consider to resign in case they can't build new things with the current pack. My response to that was I'd happily see anyone prove that we can build places like Mordor or Erebor with the current pack. That is a far stretch from what you're saying what I'm saying. I am not sure if that is what you are refering to however.


EDIT:
I think I found the quote that you are refering to at the very end so I'll try to clarify myself here on that:
This is basically the general jist of all limiting factors. Mind you non-builders might find quality builds a difficult thing to understand, but they are quite important, not only for improving our own builds, but also staying relevant within the larger minecraft building space. If we do not uphold a certain standard of building we will not attract good builders to come help us out.
I meant non builders here as in people that don't build. Not people that don't have a rank on MCME. There's plenty of talented ex-team or commoners that simply don't build on MCME. While I won't still agree with all of those builders on building quality there's a bit more people there that will be able to agree with each other on what builds are better than others. Just like I have very little idea of what makes a good tour, people that aren't experienced in building will have a more difficult time judging the quality of builds.

I agree that my point here was not a very well said one.
 
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