Lore questions and answer

[wheelleee]

Here's a rough clue: lauterbrunnen in Switzerland looks exactly like tolkien's drawing of rivendell, so it's safe to assume he definitely drew ideas from Europe

 

[wheelleee]

I meant the valley, not buildings , he repeated this geography in all 4 of his drawings of rivendell, so u can tell he loved that valley .

 

[MattTheLegoman]

I am against trying to do this (but in reverse) to Middle-earth.
Description of image in spoiler tags: gross attempt at stitching a human ear.

Spoiler

 

[MattTheLegoman]

Using ideas from the real world to help build a fantasy world is useful. But never make it a copy. I dislike it when people model the peoples and landscapes of the Harad and Rhun directly onto Africa and Asia.

One of the first questions you should ask yourself when recreating a part of Middle-earth is this:

• What makes this environment unique?
  • Are the differences still realistic in Middle-earth.

Later on you can ask yourself this question:

• Using what is known about peoples in similar environments, how would the peoples here adapt to their environment?
  • Research many civilisations.
  • Don't make recognisable connections to Earth.

 

[Gimilzor]

Also you have the similarities between Númenor and Antlantis. I personally believe Middle-Earth was a former stage of Earth

 

[JordD04]

Also you have the similarities between Númenor and Antlantis. I personally believe Middle-Earth was a former stage of Earth

Do you mean it was written to be a former stage of Earth, or you actually believe it was a former stage of earth in the same way that Christians believe in God?

 

[Gimilzor]

Do you mean it was written to be a former stage of Earth, or you actually believe it was a former stag of earth in the same way that Christians believe in God?

Oh sorry if you missunderstood my words. I meant it was written as a former stage of Earth. I'm an atheist.

 

[Olwe]

Tolkien states that the Red book of Westmarch was the basis for the Hobbit, Lord of the rings, and the Silmarillion. While this is a small factor, surely Tolkien thought our world and Arda to be the same. How else would Tolkien have translated these stories? If he records that a book was created that is basically all the books listed above, surely he's suggesting that instead of writing the books, he found an copy (original would be way to old, 3000-6000 years old) and translated. (we know this isn't true, as he wrote all the books, he's merely implying some fantasy) This raises more questions though: how did he translate? Unless "common speech" hasn't changed over the years. How did Tolkien find the book? This question would have to be answered by Tolkien himself (which sadly cant't happen). And finally another question: If they are the same, when is Dagor Dagorath? Would it be the equivalent of another world war? Was it WWII and the fate was incorrect? All these would have to be answers by Tolkien (or maybe his son).1 To sum it all up, while there's evidence to prove he approved the same world theory, there are to many questions and not enough answers to make that answer 100%.

1. Edit: Slipped my mind at the time that Tolkien stated that WWII ended the sixth age and started the seventh.

(sorry for spelling mistakes, done on a tablet)

 

[superminer4563]

What do you think Tom Bombadil was? This is probably pretty common, but I have 2 guesses for him:
1. The spirit of the 2nd music of the Ainur. He sings often and when he sings his lyrics are similar to what the 2nd music is described as.
2. The spirit of the Eternal Flame. This is just something I thought of because he is Eldest and Fatherless, and yet still vulnerable.

 

[arathorn867]

What do you think Tom Bombadil was? This is probably pretty common, but I have 2 guesses for him:
1. The spirit of the 2nd music of the Ainur. He sings often and when he sings his lyrics are similar to what the 2nd music is described as.
2. The spirit of the Eternal Flame. This is just something I thought of because he is Eldest and Fatherless, and yet still vulnerable.

I have always suspected he was a forest Maiar of some sort, perhaps a servant of Varda or Yavanna who chose to stay behind when the world was reformed. I suspect that Goldberry was one of the first born of the elves, similar to Luthien, perhaps, or another Maiar. I don't think he is the spirit of the Secret Fire (I am assuming this is what you meant?), because it is mentioned that Illuvatar hid it deep within the heart of Arda. That is why Morgoth was always digging, he was trying to access its power. The spirit of the 2nd music of the Ainur is an interesting thought, one I hadn't considered. I would say that it is possible he was the spirit of a strain of the music, but not the song as a whole. There is nothing in him about the power of ice and fire Melkor sang of, or the power of water Ulmo sang of. It is possible he is the spirit of the growing songs of Varda, Yavanna, and the other Ainur like them. Just my opinions, of course.

 

[arathorn867]

Tolkien states that the Red book of Westmarch was the basis for the Hobbit, Lord of the rings, and the Silmarillion. While this is a small factor, surely Tolkien thought our world and Arda to be the same. How else would Tolkien have translated these stories? If he records that a book was created that is basically all the books listed above, surely he's suggesting that instead of writing the books, he found an copy (original would be way to old, 3000-6000 years old) and translated. (we know this isn't true, as he wrote all the books, he's merely implying some fantasy) This raises more questions though: how did he translate? Unless "common speech" hasn't changed over the years. How did Tolkien find the book? This question would have to be answered by Tolkien himself (which sadly cant't happen). And finally another question: If they are the same, when is Dagor Dagorath? Would it be the equivalent of another world war? Was it WWII and the fate was incorrect? All these would have to be answers by Tolkien (or maybe his son).1 To sum it all up, while there's evidence to prove he approved the same world theory, there are to many questions and not enough answers to make that answer 100%.

1. Edit: Slipped my mind at the time that Tolkien stated that WWII ended the sixth age and started the seventh.

(sorry for spelling mistakes, done on a tablet)

I don't remember the book (pretty sure it was an old copy of unfinished tales 1), but Tolkien wrote a story that both linked Middle Earth and the modern world, and explained how the history could have been passed on.

As I recall it, a father and son living in England around WWII both had strange dreams. The father had soundless dreams in which he saw a ship tossed in a terrible storm in an ocean with clouds that looked like huge eagles, while the son dreamed about men shouting, wind and waves, but saw nothing. Somehow they combined their dreams and were dreaming about the escape of the faithful from the fall of Numenor. It's been a while since I read it, so that could be way off of how the story actually went.

 

[Portalrules333]

Hey, djax, do you know exactly when and how Mordor was created?

 

[_Shen]

Hey, djax, do you know exactly when and how Mordor was created?

"Mordor was a relic of the devastating works of Morgoth, apparently formed by massive volcanic eruptions. It was given the name Mordor already before Sauron settled there, because of its volcano Mount Doom and its eruptions. Sauron however was the first to settle there with the exception of Shelob and her ancestors." - Lord of the Rings Wiki

Thesis: Mordor was created sometime during the reign of Morgoth/Melkor, and his constant destruction and construction of geographical landmarks in an attempt to spite the Valar's works resulted in Mordor.

 

[Portalrules333]

"Mordor was a relic of the devastating works of Morgoth, apparently formed by massive volcanic eruptions. It was given the name Mordor already before Sauron settled there, because of its volcano Mount Doom and its eruptions. Sauron however was the first to settle there with the exception of Shelob and her ancestors." - Lord of the Rings Wiki

Thesis: Mordor was created sometime during the reign of Morgoth/Melkor, and his constant destruction and construction of geographical landmarks in an attempt to spite the Valar's works resulted in Mordor.

Thx for the info Shen!

 

[superminer4563]

When did the blue wizards arrive? Some accounts say the came after Curumno and Aiwendil, but others say they came during the Second Age to help the lesser men against sauron. If this were true, then their staying in Rhûn would make sense because the Easterlings are a lesser kind of men. It is possible that thy didn't come back because they failed and were exiled. Is there an agreed time?

 

[djax74]

When did the blue wizards arrive? Some accounts say the came after Curumno and Aiwendil, but others say they came during the Second Age to help the lesser men against sauron. If this were true, then their staying in Rhûn would make sense because the Easterlings are a lesser kind of men. It is possible that thy didn't come back because they failed and were exiled. Is there an agreed time?

Alatar and Palando came after Saruman, and before Radagast if you want to have the precise order.
Wait, what do you mean by lesser kind of men ? That sounds racist ...

 

[superminer4563]

Not racist. You missed the point. The Edain in were much more advanced bc they help in the war against morgoth and lived on numenor. The rest of men lived in Endor and so they were lost and fell under saurons dominion. They are lesser because they are not as advanced or strong as the Edain.

 

[djax74]

You also missed a point
Men of Rhûn and Harad were really though guys. They have been the ennemies of Gondor for thousands years.
Wainriders used war wagons against Gondor, and conquered all Rhovanion.
Haradrims trained and rode Oliphants for war, and had, as described in the book, a powerful cavalry.
Moreover, at the Battle of the Black Gate, after the ring was destroyed, orcs ran away, surrendered or just killed themselves. But Easterlings and Southrons fought to death and didn't surrender.
So no, I won't say they're "lesser" men and certainly not less advanced and strong than other humans.
P.S. : Well, I corrected all errors I could see

 

[_Shen]

This is a lore Q&A thread, yet there are so many grammar, spelling, and capitalization errors....Eru help us.

 

[superminer4563]

Sorry what I meant was men under saurons dominion.