Tengwar Proofreading

[Ardelenia]

Hello there. If you don't know tengwar, feel free to disregard everything here, but otherwise please help out.

I consider myself pretty proficient at using tengwar, but I am my only audience so I have gotten into certain habits. Like never using long vowels and the second r (romen) because English doesn't really need them, or using the "u-curl" to denote silent l's (talk, would, etc). Not to mention countless spelling conventions that anyone could easily and understandably do differently. I've been trying to write some Gondor place names in tengwar and it's basically the first time I'm looking at non-English words (or trying to write such that other people can read it). I'd really appreciate it if people could look over the attached list of spellings I'm unsure of. Some have questions to be answered, but if there's no comment then I just want a spell check. Note that I'm using both Sindarin and English modes, since the names are in both. Thanks!

Spoiler: List

 

[slaMoria]

I ... Me sindari nicht speak vell.
But good luck with your learning !

 

[RubenPieterMark]

@Finrod_Amandil

 

[Finrod_Amandil]

Sorry @Ardelenia haven't seen the mention yet until now

• Dol Amroth: Correct. Yes the o in "Dol" is short. Vowel length is not something you need to ponder about with Sindarin and Quenya as long vowels are always marked as such in the latin transcript (ó or ô) Although, as these accents are always omitted from warp names, it may be that the correct spelling of a made-up name may have been lost.
• Ephel Dúath: In Appendix E of LotR under Pronounciation, Tolkien quotes that "ph" in the middle of the word is to be pronounced and thus translated as [ff] (double length f), he even names the word "Ephel" as example for this. If the PH is at the start or end of the word, a single fórmen is used however (Pherian "Halfling", alph "swan")
  
  
• Cudhras: I am honestly not sure who made up this name or what its etymology is, it may however well be that it has the word "cû" or "cûd" in it and the proper spelling would be Cûdhras which is just not reflected in the warp's name. In that case your transcription would be correct. However if the correct spelling is Cudhras, then the "u" needs to be short.
• Drúwaith iaur: This one is tricky, but the mistakes i found are not about the hard part of it: You used the Tengwa "vala" for the [w] and the [au] Diphtongue instead of "wilya". However, no +u Dipthonge appears in the King's Letter which afaik is the only source Tengwar Text in Gondorian Sindarin, so its just a guess. But in analogy to the general usage of these two tengwar, wilya seems more plausible to me. The actual trick part you solved correctly though: That an at the start of the word when followed by vowels is pronounced like a consonantal [j] instead of a vocalic and thus transcribed as yanta, as you did.
  
  
• Dunharrow: I am very careful when it comes to English pronounciation as it is not my native tongue. In IPA I would say Dunharrow is pronounced /dʌnhærəʊ/ which, following the phonemic mode proposed by Mans Björkman (Amanye Tenceli: Tengwar - General Use: English) would result in this:
  
  
  
  I am a little confused about that Mans uses the u-Tehta for the "ow"-Diphtongue which seems weird to me as it clearly makes an "o"-sound. On the other hand, he says that these Diphtongues were attested in the source material shrug.
  
  Obviously however, you tried to transcribe Dunharrow not phonologically but orthografically (letter by letter rather than how its pronounced) which is also totally a valid approch. In that case your transcriptions are correct. For doubled R do not change rómen to óre, but use the tilde as you did, even if it looks a tad off.
• Aelhroth: This one I am really not sure about as I can not unveil the etymology behind it. I think I can make out the word ael "pool" and maybe roth "cave", but that additional h in between is puzzling me as their is neither a word aelh nor hroth, nor even any word in Sindarin starting in rh- nor ending in -lh. So I think here there is no true correct transcription. Yours surely is not bad; My thought was just whether the "h" belongs to the L or R, depending on that you may have not been able to use the Alda (LH) tengwa there.
• Bairdh gelin: This is very much Sindarin, one of the few place names I remember composing myself. It is the plural of bardh "home" with the lenited plural adjective calen "green"; so "green homes". Your first transcription using the diphtongue is correct.
• Rîdh gwairth: The name is unfamiliar to me but I really like it. The Sindarin seems to be correct (field of shadows), and your transcription is alright as well.
• Spathlin: Strange name, not even sure whether it's supposed to be Sindarin, there's no Sindarin-word starting in SP. But if it was a Sindarin name, your transcription using the unvoiced TH is correct. In Sindarin, unvoiced TH is always transcribed as TH in latin script, and voiced TH always as DH.
• Linhir: Has no long vowels, "Linhir" is the correct spelling and any long vowels would have been marked as such. The etymology you wondered about is explained here: Eldamo : Sindarin : Linhir
  
  
  
  
• Goldarce: For an orthografic spelling it seems to be okay. For a phonemic the question would have to be answered whether the part "arce" is pronounced like ARK (as in "dark") or "ARSE" (which would be humorous).
• Lebennin: Has no long vowels. Also as seen in the King's Letter, double-n and double-m are interpreted as pre-nasalized N and M respectively, thus placing the tilde above the tengwa instead of below it.
  
  
  
  
• Pelargir: Has no long vowels either.
• Ridgewood: The D does affect the sound, Rigewood would be pronounced differently. However English phonetics have no real regularities so you cannot say which letters have which distinct effects. You really need to decide whether you want a phonetic or orthographic transcription. If its orthographic, you write both the D and G separately, if phonetic, you only place one tengwa for the combined /dʒ/ sound, leave out the "e" cuz you cant hear it, and use a single /ʊ/ for the double "oo", as the vowels are not pronounced long (may depend though, but the pronounciation dictionary I checked for gives /wʊd/ and not /wʊ: d/)
  Phonetic:
  
  
  
  Orthografic:
  
  
• Tarannon Falastur: Looks good, except the double-N which needs the tilde to be above the Tengwa.
• Anórien: The pronounciation is ANOOR-I-EN. I is only read as J / Y at the beginning of a word when vowels follow. Also the proper spelling is Anórien, so the "ó" is long. (Eldamo : Sindarin : Anórien)
  
  
• Firienfeld: This one (like Dunharrow) is not actually English, it's Old English (resp. Rohirric) and I have no experience whatosever how to pronounce these exatly.
  [FIR-JEN] seems unlikely tho, I'd go with [FIR-I-EN].
• Haudh in Gwanûr: Use wilya for the Diphtongue, and the û in Gwanûr is long.
  
  
  
  
• Coralia: Neither Sindarin nor English I presume. Pronounciation is a matter of personal preference. I would make four syllables COR-AL-I-A and pronounce the vowels like in German and the R rolled.
• Nindalf: I am actually not even 100% sure whether you could write the D with pre-nasalization here. It's true that some of these combined sounds do not occur across compound components (Nindalf is nîn + talf), but in this specific case i am not 100% sure. But I am 90% sure that the N and D would be spelled seperately. Another problem is there though: F at the end of words are pronounced as [v] (words with PH
• at the end like alph are pronounced like [f]) and thus, the tengwa amba is used.
  
  
  
  
• Forannest: This one is actually really tricky, when it comes to choosing the right tengwa for "R". It should be órë according to the rule that it is an R at the end of a compound component, but then again the actual compounds are forn + annon + nest and in forn the R is not at the end. Then again, Forannest is a Noldorin word, and we're using Gondorian style Sindarin, so I would guess the etymology has been lost in transcription. Thus I would use órë (your first suggestion). And put the bar ontop of the n-Tengwa for NN.

Sorry for the late answer, hope it still helps

 

[Ardelenia]

Yes it helps, thank you very much! Some follow up comments:

Cudhras: I am honestly not sure who made up this name or what its etymology is, it may however well be that it has the word "cû" or "cûd" in it and the proper spelling would be Cûdhras which is just not reflected in the warp's name. In that case your transcription would be correct. However if the correct spelling is Cudhras, then the "u" needs to be short.

I believe @jacenpeter named (since he made) this mountain, and the name comes from bow, hence cú. The second part may be a mistaken borrowing from Caradhras.

Dunharrow: I am very careful when it comes to English pronounciation as it is not my native tongue. In IPA I would say Dunharrow is pronounced /dʌnhærəʊ/ which, following the phonemic mode proposed by Mans Björkman (Amanye Tenceli: Tengwar - General Use: English) would result in this:
I am a little confused about that Mans uses the u-Tehta for the "ow"-Diphtongue which seems weird to me as it clearly makes an "o"-sound. On the other hand, he says that these Diphtongues were attested in the source material shrug.
Obviously however, you tried to transcribe Dunharrow not phonologically but orthografically (letter by letter rather than how its pronounced) which is also totally a valid approch. In that case your transcriptions are correct. For doubled R do not change rómen to óre, but use the tilde as you did, even if it looks a tad off.

Yeah... I'm rather lazy and tend to go with orthographic spellings for English words. It's just easer to read, though I realize that kind of defeats the whole point of tengwar!

Aelhroth: This one I am really not sure about as I can not unveil the etymology behind it. I think I can make out the word ael "pool" and maybe roth "cave", but that additional h in between is puzzling me as their is neither a word aelh nor hroth, nor even any word in Sindarin starting in rh- nor ending in -lh. So I think here there is no true correct transcription. Yours surely is not bad; My thought was just whether the "h" belongs to the L or R, depending on that you may have not been able to use the Alda (LH) tengwa there.

I agree, it was very unclear where the h should go. But in the end I decided I liked the sound of /a͡ɛɬrɔθ/ better than /a͡ɛlhrɔθ/.

Spathlin: Strange name, not even sure whether it's supposed to be Sindarin, there's no Sindarin-word starting in SP. But if it was a Sindarin name, your transcription using the unvoiced TH is correct. In Sindarin, unvoiced TH is always transcribed as TH in latin script, and voiced TH always as DH.

The name comes from MERP and is described as a pre-Numenorean element on that wiki. I just now did some digging there (which hurt just a little) and found that the language it may come from is approximated with Breton, which contains a /ð/ but not a /θ/. But if I remember correctly, @Fireinferno13 led this town so I'll ask him. How would you personally pronounce it, Fire?

Lebennin: Has no long vowels. Also as seen in the King's Letter, double-n and double-m are interpreted as pre-nasalized N and M respectively, thus placing the tilde above the tengwa instead of below it.
Pelargir: Has no long vowels either.

I realize now this is the case since they are not marked, though it leaves me a little confused. I had seen on TolkienGateway that the last element of Pelargir was from cîr and Hisweloke's dictionary says the plural of nen is nîn (in Lebennin). Does some linguistic thing occur to shorten those vowels when they become part of a word?

Firienfeld: This one (like Dunharrow) is not actually English, it's Old English (resp. Rohirric) and I have no experience whatosever how to pronounce these exatly.
[FIR-JEN] seems unlikely tho, I'd go with [FIR-I-EN].

I too would pronounce it as three syllables. However Tolkiengateway says firien comes from Old English firgen, and wiktionary says firgen could have been pronounced with /ɣ/ instead of /g/. I feel like I have heard of examples where this sound turned into a y.

Nindalf: I am actually not even 100% sure whether you could write the D with pre-nasalization here. It's true that some of these combined sounds do not occur across compound components (Nindalf is nîn + talf), but in this specific case i am not 100% sure. But I am 90% sure that the N and D would be spelled seperately. Another problem is there though: F at the end of words are pronounced as [v] (words with PH at the end like alph are pronounced like [f]) and thus, the tengwa amba is used.

Well dammit Tolkien, why didn't you just spell it with a v? As long as you're "romanizing tengwar," couldn't you have romanized it in the most sensible way?

 

[Finrod_Amandil]

I believe @jacenpeter named (since he made) this mountain, and the name comes from bow, hence cú. The second part may be a mistaken borrowing from Caradhras.

Yes, talked with Smaug about this and he said something similar, that he gave the uncombined words to jace and he made a "Sindarin-sounding" compound. Caradhras is a combination of caran and rass, and Prestanneth (Mutation) specifies that in compounds N + R becomes DH. In the case of any vowel (cû + rass) no mutation would occur, and thus the proper spelling would probably be Cûras.

Yeah... I'm rather lazy and tend to go with orthographic spellings for English words. It's just easer to read, though I realize that kind of defeats the whole point of tengwar!

I would not say so. Tolkien used orthographic spelling a lot himself. You just need to be consistent.

I realize now this is the case since they are not marked, though it leaves me a little confused. I had seen on TolkienGateway that the last element of Pelargir was from cîr and Hisweloke's dictionary says the plural of nen is nîn (in Lebennin). Does some linguistic thing occur to shorten those vowels when they become part of a word?

Long vowels in the final syllable are very uncommon and only occur in a few exceptional words. For compounds, if you combine single syllable words with long vowel as second part of the compound, the vowel gets shortened. You also see this in names like Gondor (gond + dôr) or Celebrindal (celebrin + tâl)

Well dammit Tolkien, why didn't you just spell it with a v? As long as you're "romanizing tengwar," couldn't you have romanized it in the most sensible way?

Because it would look unfamiliar to an English eye, and people would pronounce it with the [w] sound at the end if it was written Nindalv. Its the same reason why Quenya is spelt Quenya even tho the proper representation would be Kwenya. (At least my theory that is)

 

[BWOT]

And now you know where the BWOT symbol came from.