How large was Ancalagon the Black compared to Smaug

[Eriol_Eandur]

This picture is brought up again and again:

Spoiler: comparison of dragons

In my opinion that picture is pure fan fiction without any reliable sources.
I discussed this topic several times before. But as discord "forgets" so quickly I'll summarize my thoughts here again:

• People overestimate the size and solidity of Thangorodrim. They were not really mountains like Erebor but ``were made of the ash and slag of his subterranean furnaces`` Thangorodrim were more like enormous chimneys/towers: ``and smoke issued from their tops``. Also there were many doors and tunnels in them and spaces to hold a huge host: ``By many secret doors in Thangorodrim Morgoth had let issue forth his main host``
• I really can't imagine how Earendil, a half-elf should slew that mountain size Ancalagon in the picture.
• Also from what pit of Angband that monster should come from: ``and out of the pits of Angband there issued the winged dragons``
• The destruction of Thangorodrim isn't that spectacular in the Silmarillion: ``and he fell upon the towers of Thangorodrim, and they were broken in his ruin`` It doesn't need a mountain size moster to break a tower, even if it's a huge tower. (Btw Tolkien uses almost the same wording when Galdalf struck the Balrog down from Durin's tower: ``and he fell from the high place and broke the mountain-side``)
• Glaurung also is way to large in that picture. He fits in the halls of Nargothrond like Smaug fits in the halls of Erebor. Also elves on horses and dwarves with axes fought against Glaurung in the Battles of Beleriand with quite some success.

As far as I know there is no direct quote about the size of dragons by Tolkien. But all his drawnings and more detailed descriptions (e.g. Orthanc and Minas Tirith) clearly show that he wasn't a fan of ridiculously huge stuff. From the points above my guess is that Glaurung and Smaug are about the same size. Smaug is obviouslawinged dragon first seen in the War of Wrath. If he was present there and fled or if he's a descendant of dragons who fled from the War of Wrath is unclear. So Smaug and Ancalagon were of the same kind. Ancalagon was the ``mightiest of the dragon-host`` at the War of Wrath. But that doesn't implies that he was 10 times larger than the other Dragons of the War of Wrath as suggested in the image. The largest entity of a kind is usually 10-20% larger than the average. For dragons it might be 100% larger, who knows. But more seems weird to me and there isn't any hint in that direction. So I guess Ancalagon was no more than twice the size of Smaug. I'd be ok with 5 times but definitely not the scale shown in the image.
(All quotes are from The Silmarillion)

 

[ryttyr]

I remember reading an article or something about this sometime after seeing The Battle of Five Armies that basically looked at various non-canon depictions and descriptions of Smaug and agonizingly compared them to what we know about Smaug from Tolkien's writings and letters. Now I can't find the article but if I recall right they came to the conclusion that Smaug probably is around 80 feet long, perhaps a bit larger, but that he's very unlikely to be any larger than 120 feet.

 

[SPACE_LEMON]

According to TolkienGateway the Towers of Thangorodrim were the "highest peaks in Middle-earth". Gonna look for an original source on that. In my personal opinion, the descriptions of Thangorodrim sound very volcanic.

Edit:

And looking out from the slopes of Ered Wethrin with his last sight he beheld far off the peaks of Thangorodrim, mightiest of the towers of Middle-earth, and knew with the foreknowledge of death that no power of the Noldor would ever overthrow them

- Of the Return of the Noldor, The Silmarillion​

Now of course "towers" can mean literal towers, but Tolkien's descriptive style makes use of metaphors like this all the time so my bet is he means mountain peaks.

He rode northward again with all speed to the Pass of Sirion, and coming to the skirts of Taur-nu-Fuin he looked out across the waste of Anfauglith and saw afar the peaks of Thangorodrim.

- Of Beren and Lúthien, The Silmarillion​

To be seen from that distance the Towers must have been exceedingly massive. Plus, the mere fact that they are used as the landmark of Angband and that whole region implies hugeness.

The destruction of Thangorodrim isn't that spectacular in the Silmarillion

You've got to remember that The War of Wrath (as with the whole ending stage of the Quenta) was left as practically just an outline. Nothing in the War of Wrath is described in detail and the whole section is overall underwhelming for events so world-wrenching and spectacular.

Btw Tolkien uses almost the same wording when Galdalf struck the Balrog down from Durin's tower: ``and he fell from the high place and broke the mountain-side``

True, but in the case of Thangorodrim it seems clear to me that Tolkien meant the Towers were literally broken, as in many places in The Silmarillion there are references to the "breaking" of Thangorodrim and Thangorodrim being "broken". In fact the Towers are described as "broken" shortly after Ancalagon is slain.



As for whether Eärendil could've slain a mountain-sized dragon, it's important to keep in mind that Tolkien's original conception of his mythology was particularly mythological, in that certain details are fantastical to the point of defying logic, as is the case in much of real-world mythology. Doing the impossible is typical for figures of legend.

This is not the only instance where interpreting the text literally in terms of a "real" world seems impossible. For instance, the slaves and captives of Angband are only freed after Angband and the Iron Mountains are destroyed (the mountains are "unroofed"), which of course makes absolutely no sense as they would've all been crushed.

 

[Portalrules333]

According to TolkienGateway the Towers of Thangorodrim were the "highest peaks in Middle-earth". Gonna look for an original source on that. In my personal opinion, the descriptions of Thangorodrim sound very volcanic.

Edit:

- Of the Return of the Noldor, The Silmarillion​

Now of course "towers" can mean literal towers, but Tolkien's descriptive style makes use of metaphors like this all the time so my bet is he means mountain peaks.

- Of Beren and Lúthien, The Silmarillion​

To be seen from that distance the Towers must have been exceedingly massive. Plus, the mere fact that they are used as the landmark of Angband and that whole region implies hugeness.


You've got to remember that The War of Wrath (as with the whole ending stage of the Quenta) was left as practically just an outline. Nothing in the War of Wrath is described in detail and the whole section is overall underwhelming for events so world-wrenching and spectacular.

True, but in the case of Thangorodrim it seems clear to me that Tolkien meant the Towers were literally broken, as in many places in The Silmarillion there are references to the "breaking" of Thangorodrim and Thangorodrim being "broken". In fact the Towers are described as "broken" shortly after Ancalagon is slain.



As for whether Eärendil could've slain a mountain-sized dragon, it's important to keep in mind that Tolkien's original conception of his mythology was particularly mythological, in that certain details are fantastical to the point of defying logic, as is the case in much of real-world mythology. Doing the impossible is typical for figures of legend.

This is not the only instance where interpreting the text literally in terms of a "real" world seems impossible. For instance, the slaves and captives of Angband are only freed after Angband and the Iron Mountains are destroyed (the mountains are "unroofed"), which of course makes absolutely no sense as they would've all been crushed.

I agree with this, personally I never really saw this as a problem due to the intentionally mythical aspects of the earlier ages/battles. Plus, the original battles help signify the transition towards the age of men, the age we live in now is completely normal and unmythical in contrast to the legendary aspects of the First Age.

 

[Kades6266]

This picture is brought up again and again:

Spoiler: comparison of dragons

In my opinion that picture is pure fan fiction without any reliable sources.
I discussed this topic several times before. But as discord "forgets" so quickly I'll summarize my thoughts here again:

• People overestimate the size and solidity of Thangorodrim. They were not really mountains like Erebor but ``were made of the ash and slag of his subterranean furnaces`` Thangorodrim were more like enormous chimneys/towers: ``and smoke issued from their tops``. Also there were many doors and tunnels in them and spaces to hold a huge host: ``By many secret doors in Thangorodrim Morgoth had let issue forth his main host``
• I really can't imagine how Earendil, a half-elf should slew that mountain size Ancalagon in the picture.
• Also from what pit of Angband that monster should come from: ``and out of the pits of Angband there issued the winged dragons``
• The destruction of Thangorodrim isn't that spectacular in the Silmarillion: ``and he fell upon the towers of Thangorodrim, and they were broken in his ruin`` It doesn't need a mountain size moster to break a tower, even if it's a huge tower. (Btw Tolkien uses almost the same wording when Galdalf struck the Balrog down from Durin's tower: ``and he fell from the high place and broke the mountain-side``)
• Glaurung also is way to large in that picture. He fits in the halls of Nargothrond like Smaug fits in the halls of Erebor. Also elves on horses and dwarves with axes fought against Glaurung in the Battles of Beleriand with quite some success.

As far as I know there is no direct quote about the size of dragons by Tolkien. But all his drawnings and more detailed descriptions (e.g. Orthanc and Minas Tirith) clearly show that he wasn't a fan of ridiculously huge stuff. From the points above my guess is that Glaurung and Smaug are about the same size. Smaug is obviouslawinged dragon first seen in the War of Wrath. If he was present there and fled or if he's a descendant of dragons who fled from the War of Wrath is unclear. So Smaug and Ancalagon were of the same kind. Ancalagon was the ``mightiest of the dragon-host`` at the War of Wrath. But that doesn't implies that he was 10 times larger than the other Dragons of the War of Wrath as suggested in the image. The largest entity of a kind is usually 10-20% larger than the average. For dragons it might be 100% larger, who knows. But more seems weird to me and there isn't any hint in that direction. So I guess Ancalagon was no more than twice the size of Smaug. I'd be ok with 5 times but definitely not the scale shown in the image.
(All quotes are from The Silmarillion)

Just one comment, Smaug is a DRAKE not a dragon, they are significantly smaller than dragons, even your picture represents that by showing the fire DRAKE

 

[Eriol_Eandur]

Just one comment, Smaug is a DRAKE not a dragon, they are significantly smaller than dragons, even your picture represents that by showing the fire DRAKE

Could you explain the difference between a drake and a dragon? I can't find a clear definition.

 

[Kades6266]

Could you explain the difference between a drake and a dragon? I can't find a clear definition.

Originally it was defined as an “immature dragon” such as baby or juveniles but in Tolkien’s world and in many stories now it is just defined as a miniature dragon, an example for comparison between a dragon and a drake would be like a lizard and an alligator.

 

[Eriol_Eandur]

Do you have an source for Smaug being a miniature dragon compared to the dragons of the First Age?

 

[Kades6266]

Do you have a source for Smaug being a miniature dragon compared to the dragons of the First Age?

There’s not really any sources as Tolkien never addressed it all sources are just guesstimated, but in his books he does say that the magic and all things born of magic in the world were lesser in the 3rd age vs the 1st, so he was smaller but we don’t know by how much, the fact that he was unheard of in the world until he attacked Erebor, and the dragons of the first age were all known of for many feats, might lead to him being smaller and less notable than the other dragons

Tolkien also states that Ancalagon was able to completely blot out the sky when he flew over while Smaug did not, even in the film where it is assumed that his size is bigger than in the books he doesn’t come close to blocking out the sky completely when he’s just flying over. Ancalagon was also given credit for collapsing several mountains, just by falling on them, known as the Towers of Thangorodrim which were the tallest peaks, he did so in a way that made it noticeable that the mountains had been broken to any who saw them, while at the same time Smaug is able to fit in a mountain and when he died sank to the bottom of the long lake to a point where treasure hunters were scared to dive for the treasure on his body as stated in Tolkien’s books. For a comparison of the lake, although very long, the town which he fell into was built by wooden poles sunken into the lake bed, without modern technology mostly shows that the lake wasn’t that deep

That’s about all I could find