On Hold How to build the Eye of Barad-dûr?

[Eriol_Eandur]

Hey MCME,

there was a vivid dicussion at discord about the Eye of Barad-dûr. In my opinion it's very important to discuss this but Discord is a very bad place to do. I'll put my two cents here and invite you to add yours.
Please help to make this a useful thread. Make post only if you have something new to add. If you just want to agree it's better to like the post you agree with to keep the thread short.

So for me here are two main points:

1. Many players new to MCME will expect to see the epic movie version of Barad-dûr. It is indeed one of the most iconic images people have about LotR. Thus they would be disappointed not to see this.
2. The Eye of Barad-dûr is described in the Book quite different as a flame stabbing from a great window in the highest tower of Barad-dûr:

Spoiler: Book description of the Eye of Barad-dûr

(Sam came) ... to a dark entrance (of Sammath Naur), that gazed back east straight to the the Window of the Eye in Sauron's shadow-mantled fortress.
...
Far of the shadows of Sauron hung; but torn by some gust of wind out of the world, or else by some great disquiet within, the mantling clouds swirled, and for a moment drew aside; and then he saw, rising black, blacker and darker than the vast shades amid which it stood, the cruel pinnacles and iron crown of the topmost tower of Barad-dûr. One moment only it stared out, but as from some great window immeasurably high there stabbed northward a flame of red, the flicker of a piercing Eye

At all other places the Eye is mentionend in the book it is not material but methaphorical (communication using a Palantir, Mirror of Galadriel, Seat of Seeing at Amon Hen...) I don't see why the physical shape of Barad-dûr should match these descriptions.

 

[BWOT]

I would also like to say that we built Isengard according to the movie as well, (black, overly gothic) from what I see it’s taken by new players very well.

Later today when I have access to my computer I will move most of the discord discussion to here

 

[didi45]

I would agree with the movie upon this decision as the eye itself is what makes bara dur so unique and it would be nicer rather then a window for metefore I have made bara dur on single player (notice I made my tower with a mix of world of Warcraft theme so it doesn't look so lord of the ringsy)

 

[Eriol_Eandur]

There was also some discussion if Sauron took a physical body after his defeat at the Battle of the Last Alliance.
He began to took a new physical shape indeed around 1050 T.A. when the shadow fell on Mirkwood. Tolkien even described the shape in one of his letters:

The situation as between Frodo with the Ring and the Eight [The Witch-king had been reduced to impotence] might be compared to that of a small brave man armed with a devastating weapon, faced by eight savage warriors of great strength and agility armed with poisoned blades. The man’s weakness was that he did not know how to use his weapon yet; and he was by temperament and training averse to violence. Their weakness that the man’s weapon was a thing that filled them with fear as an object of terror in their religious cult, by which they had been conditioned to treat one who wielded it with servility. I think they would have shown ‘servility’. They would have greeted Frodo as ‘Lord’. With fair speeches they would have induced him to leave the Sammath Naur – for instance ‘to look upon his new kingdom, and behold afar with his new sight the abode of power that he must now claim and turn to his own purposes’. Once outside the chamber while he was gazing some of them would have destroyed the entrance. Frodo would by then probably have been already too enmeshed in great plans of reformed rule – like but far greater and wider than the vision that tempted Sam (III 177) – to heed this. But if he still preserved some sanity and partly understood the significance of it, so that he refused now to go with them to Barad-dûr, they would simply have waited. Until Sauron himself came. In any case a confrontation of Frodo and Sauron would soon have taken place, if the Ring was intact. Its result was inevitable. Frodo would have been utterly overthrown: crushed to dust, or preserved in torment as a gibbering slave. Sauron would not have feared the Ring! It was his own and under his will. Even from afar he had an effect upon it, to make it work for its return to himself. In his actual presence none but very few of equal stature could have hoped to withhold it from him. Of ‘mortals’ no one, not even Aragorn. In the contest with the Palantír Aragorn was the rightful owner. Also the contest took place at a distance, and in a tale which allows the incarnation of great spirits in a physical and destructible form their power must be far greater when actually physically present. Sauron should be thought of as very terrible. The form that he took was that of a man of more than human stature, but not gigantic. In his earlier incarnation he was able to veil his power (as Gandalf did) and could appear as a commanding figure of great strength of body and supremely royal demeanour and countenance.

Fround at: What Did Sauron Look Like?

 

[ryttyr]

I agree with both options. I think Tolkien meant to leave the question of whether the eye of Sauron is physical or metaphorical up to the interpretation of the reader, my own interpretation being that the eye was a metaphor for Sauron's piercing will and that what is described as an eye in a window may be anything really (I have multiple plausible theories, the one I like the most being that that window leads to the room where Sauron uses his palantir), after all Tolkien did use the same description of an red eye looking out of the window of the tower of Cirith Ungol which later was revealed to just be torchlight.

However I also agree that having the movie version of an massive eye is very iconic and would please a lot of new members who would be really disappointed if we didn't have the massive eye and like BWOT said we do tend to go movie version over book version (Orthanc, Minas Tirith's wall, the balrog). However I'm unsure if we could actually make the eye justice in Minecraft.
So all in all I'm gonna vote blank on this for now.

 

[Daddlio]

I think Tolkien meant to leave the question of whether the eye of Sauron is physical or metaphorical up to the interpretation of the reader

I disagree: If Tolkien left that open on purpose for some meta-reasons then what he rather wanted to say was probably that u cant put ur finger on what exactly the evil is.
(Which actualy supports the metaphorical one a bit more imho.)

However I also agree that having the movie version of an massive eye is very iconic and would please a lot of new members who would be really disappointed if we didn't have the massive eye

Oh look, thats the first thing that comes up when u google "Minecraft Middleearth":
"Minecraft Middle Earth
Minecraft Middle Earth
Creating the imagined world of Middle Earth in Minecraft according to Tolkien his books."

 

[Milarwen]

I for one never liked the eye on Barad Dûr. I think what he feels is the palantir or something like an evil presence, like when you are all alone and feels like someone is watching you.

 

[didi45]

About this discussion of embodiment of sauron, in the hobbit we discover that sauron doesn't have an actual body but a spirit being of him in dol guldur later pushed away by the white council into Mordor where he then had a eye watching middle Earth

 

[Milarwen]

As pointed out before, Gollum points out that Sauron is missing a finger when Sauron tortures him for information on the whereabouts of the ring. How can he be missing a finger if he is a huge eye?
It may be iconic but I don't think its right. His spirit is probably a shadow of his former self.

 

[Indorilian]

About this discussion of embodiment of sauron, in the hobbit we discover that sauron doesn't have an actual body but a spirit being of him in dol guldur later pushed away by the white council into Mordor where he then had a eye watching middle Earth

Please don’t bring the hobbit movies into a discussion about lore.

 

[thomasd18]

In my opinion we should use the movie version as the vast majority of players will be expecting to see the eye and it will also just look much more impressive than a window which would just be disappointing as a build. We have adapted to the movie versions multiple times because they were portrayed much better in the movies and although it can be divisive I think MCME has become much more of a mix between the movie and books taking the best from both. The eye is clearly an icon of the series which would definitely feel missing if not included.

 

[ooitsbirdo]

Build the eye, but just change "Creating the imagined world of Middle Earth in Minecraft according to Tolkien his books." to Something else cause mcme doesnt hold that title anymore

 

[BWOT]

Build the eye, but just change "Creating the imagined world of Middle Earth in Minecraft according to Tolkien his books." to Something else cause mcme doesnt hold that title anymore

Why change it? The book does not say specifically there was no eye, as many people said it’s up to interpretation (the great things about books) the only thing is that we sometimes go to the movie look due to what many people are expecting it to look like, unless it’s definitively said in the book to look different than we are still keeping to the book.

 

[Fraspace5]

I think we should follow the film version because many new players have only seen the film and are expecting it. It is also more suggestive.

 

[ryttyr]

We could have a room with window for the palantir right below the eye to get the best of both worlds similar to how we did the wall of Minas Tirith.

 

[didi45]

I think as pointed out by some others that we should stick with the movie in this case, Peter Jackson pretty much created a perfect world (not entirely with lore...) But we should use it in this case as the eye takes a huge role in middle Earth as also it is something physical and much nicer to follow for building

 

[ryttyr]

Hey @Eriol_Eandur could you add an "why not have both? Best of two worlds." option to the poll?

 

[BWOT]

Hey @Eriol_Eandur could you add an "why not have both? Best of two worlds." option to the poll?

How would this be possible?

 

[ryttyr]

How would this be possible?

You mean add an option to the poll? That's easy, just edit the poll and add the option.
If you mean how to combine both options just build both the eye at the top and a window in the topmost room just below the eye.

 

[_superr]

You mean add an option to the poll? That's easy, just edit the poll and add the option.
If you mean how to combine both options just build both the eye at the top and a window in the topmost room just below the eye.

i think he means how would it work to mix both the movie adaptation and the book description xD