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Lond Daer Style

barteldvn

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The sandstone block states are free in the URPS iteration of the Eriador RP hopefully being introduced with the 1.13 update so we could have a new texture for old sandstone.
Like I said above I don't see why we need to use sandstone, I feel like sandstone has been used quite a lot already.

On the topic of mixing textures, I think the white bricks can't be used for walls in any of these buildings. Not only because they are way too perfect but also because according to some source I stumbled upon during my quick research yesterday the only white rock they used was marble and that was only used for columns and statues. Especially the Byzantines tried to drive down the costs of building by increasing the thickness of the mortar layers between the bricks which resulted in warping and even collapse in some of their structures but at the same time established an important characteristic of byzantine architecture, the asymmetry/imperfection of their structures. The cost-efficiency they were striving for also means that they wouldn't have used marble, a much more expensive material, in their walls. One could argue that they might have been able to afford that in Lond Daer but I'd say white walls just aren't part of early roman/byzantine structures. Plus I can't imagine how you would ruin a white wall like that as marble gets a yellow tint over time.

About the byzantine style, we're only using it as a reference, obviously Numenoreans weren't exactly the same as the Byzantines, so we shouldn't copy them completely. Either way the concepts I made were for the richest, most fancy buildings (the palace complex) so they could most definitely afford marble in some areas.

really like the ruined concept. But I find it unfortunate that we are forced to use the stone texture to add some variation. I know it's been used in the past to simulate plaster which normally works in my opinion. However, according to the same source plaster facades were rather uncommon as the focus lay on making the interiors as fancy as possible. Maybe coming up with another texture for variation within large surfaces would help with making these walls look interesting while keeping consistent in where we use certain textures and what they are supposed to portray. If you have an idea send me suggestions and inspiration pictures!
Using block variations will always be needed. It'd be nice to have more possibilities though.
 

TotiGonzales

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Like I said above I don't see why we need to use sandstone, I feel like sandstone has been used quite a lot already.
Idk... I feel like its the surrounding environment that dictates the type of stone a certain civilization would use to build its cities. Looking at northern Andrast it looks like jacen is going for a very sandstone heavy terrain which is the closest mountain range (as far as I can tell) to the city.
About the byzantine style, we're only using it as a reference, obviously Numenoreans weren't exactly the same as the Byzantines, so we shouldn't copy them completely. Either way the concepts I made were for the richest, most fancy buildings (the palace complex) so they could most definitely afford marble in some areas.
I definitely agree with that statement. However I would have to point out that these decisions taken by the Byzantines are exactly the factors that made byzantine architecture its own style so while taking our creative freedom with most decisions we make I think there are some core characteristics that we may have to stick to if you want to be able to reference real-life example. One could, of course, come up with an independent style derived from the early roman/byzantine one but that would also mean that every builder on that project would understand what that style is and would be able to recreate it without much real-life reference and inspiration.
 

barteldvn

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Idk... I feel like its the surrounding environment that dictates the type of stone a certain civilization would use to build its cities. Looking at northern Andrast it looks like jacen is going for a very sandstone heavy terrain which is the closest mountain range (as far as I can tell) to the city.
Andrast is way too far away for them to get their main stone from there. The city most likely got its stone from surrounding hills/cliffs or just regular quarries that dug down into the ground.
 

TotiGonzales

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Andrast is way too far away for them to get their main stone from there. The city most likely got its stone from surrounding hills/cliffs or just regular quarries that dug down into the ground.
Could still be sandstone as that normally forms along the coastline but due to the fact that the estuary of the Gwualtho hasn't been part of the coastline for a very long time (as in the west of M.E. stood Beleriand until the end of the first age) the probability that they would have used grey stones to build Lond Daer is big. I'm still not totally convinced about the way they would mine the stones tho. I'm not sure they would be digging quarries straight down but a combination of hillside quarrying and getting stone transported down the river from canyon quarrying upstream would be my best guesses for their stone sources.
 

RubenPieterMark

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Sandstone doesn't have to be sand-colored. Not all sandstone is yellow in the first place - Bentheim sandstone is grey - but sandstone turns less colorful as it weathers. And as Ardelenia and me have posted before, there has been quite some weathering going on around Lond Daer. So whatever type of rock is likely to have been used, the grey color isn't that bad.
 

creeperpig0

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Sandstone doesn't have to be sand-colored. Not all sandstone is yellow in the first place - Bentheim sandstone is grey - but sandstone turns less colorful as it weathers. And as Ardelenia and I have posted before, there has been quite some weathering going on around Lond Daer. So whatever type of rock is likely to have been used, the grey color isn't that bad.
The idea that I'm talking about is that I don' really care if it's sandstone or not, I just don't want it to be grey. As I said, every single ruined city on the server uses normal stone brick (except for Ost-In-Edhil). I think that any other color other than grey would work. I think that making the sandstone grey basically ruins the point.
 

Mithrilled

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The idea that I'm talking about is that I don' really care if it's sandstone or not, I just don't want it to be grey. As I said, every single ruined city on the server uses normal stone brick (except for Ost-In-Edhil). I think that any other color other than grey would work. I think that making the sandstone grey basically ruins the point.
Then what colour should it be?
 

Ivan1

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Andrast is way too far away for them to get their main stone from there. The city most likely got its stone from surrounding hills/cliffs or just regular quarries that dug down into the ground.
Or from sea/river trade (except early buildings which could be upgraded/rebuilt later), in which case it could be pretty much any type of stone.
 

barteldvn

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Or from sea/river trade (except early buildings which could be upgraded/rebuilt later), in which case it could be pretty much any type of stone.
Though still highly unlikely they'd rely on stone from far away as their main building source. You set up a city in an ideal location, that would include available material to build it.
 

TotiGonzales

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Though still highly unlikely they'd rely on stone from far away as their main building source. You set up a city in an ideal location, that would include available material to build it.
I wouldn't be entirely sure about that. If I understood right, the city wasn't meant as a fortress originally as the Numenoreans came to the gulf to exploit natural resources of the area for building on the island. In the beginning, the main goal of the harbor of Lond Daer was to load wood onto Numeronean ships which transported it to Numenor. They plundered the woods of the Endwaith and Cardolan to such an extent that the local population started to get upset with them. That and the increase in attacks from Saurons forces is what eventually forced the Numenoreans to fortify the city and make it into what it became by the end of the S. A. So I'm inclined to believe that they didn't take into account the availability of building materials too much when establishing the port as wood would have been enough in the beginning.

Do we have any sources on the stone found in this region?
From my limited geology knowledge, I would expect igneous and metamorphic rock types like Andesite, Diorite, Granite, Gneiss, Marble, and Slate to be the main materials of the surrounding terrain as I couldn't find any conclusive evidence for any type of sedimentation in the history of the terrain. **TANGENT ALERT** Another argument that leads me to believe that is the way Beleriand stood in relation to Eriador. The Blue Mountains, parts of which survived and are still standing after the First Age, look to me a lot like mountains that would form at convergent plate boundaries which would bring me to my theory of a Beleriand and an Eriador tectonic plate standing next to each other. Believe it or not but there has been quite a bit of discussion about tectonics in Middle Earth for some time and there are several Articles about that. The formation of the Blue Mountains is a pretty important point in my opinion as that is the closest geological event that would give us some insight into what types of rocks were to be found around Lond Daer. This theory would support the presence of igneous and metamorphic rock types commonly found in such environments as convergent plate boundaries thanks to the immense heat, pressure and possibly volcanic activity present in such mountain formation processes.

Then what colour should it be?
I would have to agree that some variation in the colors of our ruins wouldn't be too bad however I fear that almost all rock types eventually become grey or just very dark after millennia of weathering and fungi covering them. Maybe some RP developments that make textures like these possible would help with adding some interest.
 

creeperpig0

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From my limited geology knowledge, I would expect igneous and metamorphic rock types like Andesite, Diorite, Granite, Gneiss, Marble, and Slate to be the main materials of the surrounding terrain as I couldn't find any conclusive evidence for any type of sedimentation in the history of the terrain. **TANGENT ALERT** Another argument that leads me to believe that is the way Beleriand stood in relation to Eriador. The Blue Mountains, parts of which survived and are still standing after the First Age, look to me a lot like mountains that would form at convergent plate boundaries which would bring me to my theory of a Beleriand and an Eriador tectonic plate standing next to each other. Believe it or not but there has been quite a bit of discussion about tectonics in Middle Earth for some time and there are several Articles about that. The formation of the Blue Mountains is a pretty important point in my opinion as that is the closest geological event that would give us some insight into what types of rocks were to be found around Lond Daer. This theory would support the presence of igneous and metamorphic rock types commonly found in such environments as convergent plate boundaries thanks to the immense heat, pressure and possibly volcanic activity present in such mountain formation processes.
I personally think that without any canon information, this is all nullified, and allows for complete freedom with the stone we use. We could try to make out possible geological activity in the region, but with no hard evidence, it's not really worth it. When I was asking my question, it was more of a question similar to if I had asked: "Is there any info on what rock Orthanc used?" (which, of course, there is). And, not to be "that guy", but in this particular situation, applying real-world geology to Middle Earth is nigh pointless, as we know of no evidence relating to true tectonic activity, and articles such as the one you sighted are, in my opinion, going against canon, as the only geographical events known of in Middle Earth apply to mythical events, and no natural causes. I appreciate the effort on realism, though I stick with my original claim that sandstone is still a viable (and subjectively optimal) candidate for material usage in Lond Daer in the absence of further evidence refuting the aforementioned.
 

Ivan1

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I made a byzantine-like concept, here are some screenshots of that. Thoughts?

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2019-12-22_23.30.36.png
 

maski98

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If we look at the byzantine style we will have few colors depending on the place and the building. So why don't we have one type of material for the poor, one for the middle and one for the rich? That way even after we ruined it to the ground the people will manage to make a difference. And so the important buildings can be different color too(i mean the inns, baths, the domes..). Maybe the rich to be marble, so they will become yellow/orange and maybe the baths too. The poor to be greyish and the middle to be maybe something black/dark idk here.
 

creeperpig0

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RubenPieterMark

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I'm not sure why you keep on going for dark grey and dark blue. I am yet to see a single Byzantine structure with heavy use of this color scheme. They all appear to use sandstone. As for the structure, I think it's really good.
Architecture is not defined by the used materials. The material choice depends mostly on the geography, especially the materials used for the structure.
 

ryttyr

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Considering that Lond Daer started out as a harbour city for shipping logs to Numenor some of the oldest buildings would probably have been wooden houses as that would be the by far most common building material. Obviously nothing of these wooden houses would have survived into the third age but it's an interesting historical point nonetheless I think.
 
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