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Moria - Stage 2: Idea collecting and fine planning

Finrod_Amandil said:
No "The" Temple to Aule is at the center of the Chamber of Light in the middle of Moria. Whether dwarves were mono- or polytheistic most likely not even Tolkien did know, its not even said that they worshipped Aule at all or even knew that he was "guilty" of their existance. I think we don't need to settle down either of these two (or anything else) for that, if it was monotheistic we could simply argue that they too did worship Aule in that war god temple, but either had a special temple for war matters or simply one that's closer to the "war zone East Gate" for practical reasons.
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If we say that they do worship Aule, they could still worship different aspects of Aule, so this is like "war-aule" (hinduism is an example of a religion in which deities have different forms/versions, if you want a real-life justification)
 
I've been looking at the progress in Moria and the words huge and awesome kept popping into my mind. However, I found something weird (at least to my eyes) concerning the corridor that goes after the bridge to the East Gate. Why is there so many wood pillars everywhere? Is that supposed to represent some kind of reconstruction process or something like that? Some of those pillars are literally in the middle of the way and I think this would be quite unlikely considering the East Gate is the main entrance to Moria, so that corridor would be quite used and they would impede movement. The part near the bridge is fine, but around the teleport area is where I find it's too messy. But again, this is just my opinion. Besides that, Moria is awesome and I hope I had more time to go online to be able to get artist and help with it :)
 
Lorwel said:
I've been looking at the progress in Moria and the words huge and awesome kept popping into my mind. However, I found something weird (at least to my eyes) concerning the corridor that goes after the bridge to the East Gate. Why is there so many wood pillars everywhere? Is that supposed to represent some kind of reconstruction process or something like that? Some of those pillars are literally in the middle of the way and I think this would be quite unlikely considering the East Gate is the main entrance to Moria, so that corridor would be quite used and they would impede movement. The part near the bridge is fine, but around the teleport area is where I find it's too messy. But again, this is just my opinion. Besides that, Moria is awesome and I hope I had more time to go online to be able to get artist and help with it :)
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I want to review that with despot once more, the thing is, that we need some corners in the corridor for the teleporting, but I agree that we should get something more easily passable. I really want to apologise especially to @Despot666 that I wasn't able to help at all in the past time! (due to irl obligations...)
 
Those wooden beams are there to support the roof. Normaly you wouldnt have to walk throught the whole thing since you'd get teleported pretty early on (as the signs show). Also they are there to block the view which is there to make a seamless teleportation. Oh and messy is just how I would imagine goblin builds.
Happy to see you becoming more active.
 
I agree that the wood pillars seem rather out-of-place and also just in the way, but I had the same idea that ma5 did. Nonetheless I don't think the ceiling would be collapsing in the whole passageway so maybe just have small sections with wood supports?
 
Yes, I understand the need of blocking the view for a seamless teleportation, and also the fact that fact that goblin structures would be messy. However, I don't think that corridor would be in such need of support beams. And besides, we should keep in mind that the Balrog was seen through the East Gate during the battle of Azanulbizar, so the corridor should be wide enough to let it get closer at least to the first hall. Unless we understand it was not seen but just sensed? Perhaps we could widen the corridor and achieve to block the view by making it turn sharply or something like that. I don't know, it's just ideas. Whatever the final result is, i'm sure it will be great :)
 
Lorwel said:
Yes, I understand the need of blocking the view for a seamless teleportation, and also the fact that fact that goblin structures would be messy. However, I don't think that corridor would be in such need of support beams. And besides, we should keep in mind that the Balrog was seen through the East Gate during the battle of Azanulbizar, so the corridor should be wide enough to let it get closer at least to the first hall. Unless we understand it was not seen but just sensed? Perhaps we could widen the corridor and achieve to block the view by making it turn sharply or something like that. I don't know, it's just ideas. Whatever the final result is, i'm sure it will be great :)
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Because Balrog would fit in current Durin tower... Oh wait... We have some major plothole/inconsistency in this matter on the server and i am not the only one who complained about this :p.

I am open for suggestions but there are few points u have to remember:
-teleport zone needs to break vier both going in and out
-going above or under obstacle is an option but only one solution can be chosen per obstacle: for example u cannot go both under and to the right of it (teleport area too wide)
-in my imagination this tunnel should be straight, so semi collapsed part wasthe only thing i could think of. MAYBE goblin barricade/gate done in middle of tunnel could work too but it would need good design
-2 zones for teleportation are required <in and out>, u cannot be able to tell in which world are you standing in any spot in any of these zones
 
Despot666 said:
Because Balrog would fit in current Durin tower... Oh wait... We have some major plothole/inconsistency in this matter on the server and i am not the only one who complained about this :p.

I am open for suggestions but there are few points u have to remember:
-teleport zone needs to break vier both going in and out
-going above or under obstacle is an option but only one solution can be chosen per obstacle: for example u cannot go both under and to the right of it (teleport area too wide)
-in my imagination this tunnel should be straight, so semi collapsed part wasthe only thing i could think of. MAYBE goblin barricade/gate done in middle of tunnel could work too but it would need good design
-2 zones for teleportation are required <in and out>, u cannot be able to tell in which world are you standing in any spot in any of these zones
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About Durin's Stairs, it seems as though our Balrog was either tiny or crouched the entire way up.
 
That's what you say. We actually have no evidence for that, even if it's certainly smaller than the movie one.
 
Ok ok, as I said, I will accept whatever result it is and what you guys decide, I was just giving my opinion on the subject. It's not the plothole/inconsistencies I was complaining about, in fact I wasn't even complaining, I was just giving my impression. I really don't have any idea how the teleport system works, so do whatever you think it's best. However, concerning the Balrog size, it's clearly stated in the books, and I quote "of man-shape maybe, yet greater". How much bigger this greater means I don't know, clearly not as big as in the movies, but certainly not the same height as a human. Anyway, I think this may be starting to deviate too much, so lets drop it and get back on topic. If you can get something out of my impressions, fantastic. If not, just keep up the good work, you're doing an awesome and amazing good work.
 
Bombur8 said:
That's what you say. We actually have no evidence for that, even if it's certainly smaller than the movie one.
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From an early draft of LotR:

"A figure strode to the fissure, no more than man-high yet terror seemed to go before it."

The final draft states that it was "of man-shape maybe, yet greater." Therefore it was Tolkien's intention that the Balrog was larger than a man, but not much larger. Certainly the largest they got was twice man-height, as evidenced by the size of Gothmog when he fought Ecthelion (Ecthelion killed him by driving his helmet spike into Gothmog's stomach).
 
As you said, that was an early draft. And Tolkien changed it to say, actually, pretty much the opposite (same size as a Man -> bigger than a Man). So, when it's certainly not the monster it's in the movie, the actual difference between a Man and a Balrog very subjective. Depending on the sensitivity of each individu it can be interpreted in different ways: either "ah, he first said it wasn't taller than a Man and then changed his mind for a simple, non superlative description that establish the Balrog as taller than a Man, this could mean that he just lightly changed his idea of the Balrog's appearance" or "ah, he first said it wasn't taller than a Man and then wrote it is actually taller than a Man, this is a clear change, he clearly cheged his mind there, so it should indicate a clear difference". Personnally, I can absolutely imagine a troll-sized Balrog.
The only way to have a clear idea of the Balrog's actual size would be to get some clear indication in the last LOTR version or in a text written by Tolkien post the last LOTR version, and that, as far as I know, whe have not. We just cannot use outdated writings to establish a canon, because their interpretation of "how did this become that in Tolkien's mind" is simply too much dependent of the interpreter, too much subjective.
 
I've always imagined the "like a man, but greater" line to be that he was the same size as a man( maybe a bit larger) but it was the appearance that made it seem like it was much more than just a man.
 
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