On Gay Elves

[SPACE_LEMON]

[Disclaimer: Obviously this is totally irrelevant to the server. That's beside the point. If you don't feel like this is a topic worth engaging in, simply don't engage in it.]


This is a topic that has been hotly debated both in-game and on Discord, and a few weeks ago I found myself in just such a debate. (This is how it went down: one party made a joke about gay Elves. Another party immediately took offence and insisted that the mere idea of gay Elves breaks canon. And so an argument began.) The debate seemed to settle on the conclusion that Elves can only be heterosexual because they are (to simply matters) biologically primed to conform to Tolkien’s orthodox Catholic views. However, the arguments given never sat well with me, so I wanted badly to revisit this topic, and this time in a setting much more controlled and easy to keep track of: the forums. (It only took me so long because I had builds to work on.)

What I will be doing in this post is to quote all the relevant arguments, and refute them as best I can, and concede where I can’t. So-doing I will attempt to demonstrate how, despite whatever Tolkien’s own views may have been, same-sex attraction and romance in Elves are nevertheless hypothetically possible without breaking canon.



My argument is two-fold:

• Even if Elves are only able to marry heterosexually (supposedly because Elven marriage only exists for the sake of begetting children, though I have yet to find the passage(s) that state this), it is more than evident that attraction is not confined to marriage and in fact comes before it.
• If asked, Tolkien (as an orthodox Catholic) would certainly have said that Elves cannot experience same-sex attraction. However, as he never explicitly wrote such (as far as is known) his feelings outside of his literary work are irrelevant.
• Therefore, same-sex attraction among the Eldar is theoretically possible, at least in hypothetical discussion.

I give now the arguments, quoted from the Lore chat on Discord, against the possibility of same-sex attraction in Elves, followed by my own commentary thereon.

Elves in their nature cannot be gay due to the being designed to be perfect, biologically speaking

they also have very traditional love values(edited)

which means man and woman

end of discussion

if you want to know about how elves love and all that i can explain it as it was touched on briefly

but nothing gives evidence to even the posibility of homosexuality in elves

● Being “biologically perfect” does not preclude being able to experience same-sex attraction

● So much is assumed in the “traditional values” argument:

• First, that Elves are physically incapable of experiences outside of their “values” (or “laws and customs”, if you will). This is probably a defensible assumption, but requires an entire discussion of its own to defend, and I have yet to find a passage that states or implies this (though I believe it may exist).
• Then that Elvish values specifically exclude the possibility of same-sex relation. Even if same-sex marriages are impossible, that does not imply that same-sex romance or attraction are therefore also impossible. Elves experience love and desire as well, after all. Furthermore, just because Tolkien didn’t address homosexuality in his writings on the customs of the Eldar, doesn’t mean it is therefore impossible. To give a crude example, he didn’t write about the digestive specifics of Elves, but that does not mean it’s against canon to assume they experienced bowel movements.
• Hardly worthy of ending a discussion.

● You don’t need evidence of something existing to say that it could exist. See my bowel movements argument. We know that homosexuality exists, so for us to assume it doesn’t exist among the Eldar would require a passage specifically stating that, and I have found no evidence of such a passage.

(I’ll also add that the “end of discussion” thing is pretty rude. Don’t shut discussion down like that.)

And he wouldn't have [considered it] either

He was a good christian

so the chances are far too low

Tolkien being an orthodox Catholic is irrelevant. All that matters is what he actually wrote pertaining to his universe.

yes we are talking hypothetically

and in canon

there are no gay elves

there is no evidence of it

and there never will be

case closed

if you wish to have a fan fic of them being gay

I feel like my counter-arguments will get really repetitive really quick, but basically:

• Just because Tolkien didn’t write about it doesn’t make it impossible even hypothetically. He didn’t mention Hobbits needing to pee either, but it would be a mistake to assume that they don’t.
• You don’t need evidence for something we know exists universally in reality. On the contrary, you would need evidence that it doesn’t exist.

And again, that attempt to shut down the conversation. So rude. :I

Elves were created to be pure reflections of the ainur, as close as they could. The Ainur are tradtional and have tradtional values, which is husband and wife. This is seen through couples such as Manwe and Varda or Aule and Yavanna. This is also reflected in elves. Elves have a very different love life to humans. They do not feel physical attraction or lust. Sexual experiences are done out of need for procreation. the sexual experience is also a very genuine and sacred act for an elf. This sexual attraction is very traditional in tis values, just like the Ainur hold. This is further evidenced by Tolkiens solid christian values. This would mean he both would never of even considered it and if he had would of discarded the idea due to his beliefs. Now as for love elves only love once and usually find their love in their childhood, this comes down to both sexual attraction (which is traditional) and physical attracton as well as the bond they share. Now for you to say that an elf can be gay purely out of a bond shared, would mean a straight guy could be gay from a friendship which is what we all know would be absurd. Furthermore Tolkiens ideas on the elves would be that they are inherently very traditional. My own opinon on the matter reflects this, however i does not mean that gays are completely out of tolkiens works. I fully believe that it is indeed possible for gays to exist within humans, as their attractions and values are very similar and changing to ours. I would not be opposed to this too as it does not contradict both the professors views and values or canon

A lot to unpack here.

● Gender works a lot differently for the Ainur. Most obviously, the gender of the Ainur has nothing to do with procreation, but is rather aspects of their spirits and the forms they assume. Besides, the lack of same-sex marriage among the Ainur hardly makes it impossible. What may well make it impossible is that the inherent gender aspects of the Ainur are only compatible with the opposite gender aspect, though a source would need to be cited for this, and a further source would need to be cited to show that this also applies to Elves.

● Elves do feel physical attraction. Tolkien states in Laws and Customs that Elves are not known for committing crimes of lust, but he does state that Elves experience desire.

● I need a source cited that states that Elves only experience anything sexual for the purpose of procreation. If it exists, that still doesn’t preclude romantic connection.

● Yes, the sexual experience is of the utmost spiritual importance to the Eldar: Tolkien states that the sexual act itself seals a marriage. This hardly has anything to do with sexual orientation, however. And even if it does, it applies strictly to sex and marriage, and sex is not necessary for romantic connection. After all, Elves can be in love as betrothed partners for years before marriage without any sexual contact.

● “Traditional” values only matter where they are stated to exist, and Tolkien never says a word about sexual orientation. And even if homosexuality was against the values of the Eldar, I would again need a source stating that Elves are physically incapable of experiences outside of the values of their people.

● Again I must state that Tolkien’s real-world views are irrelevant outside of where they explicitly bleed into his fiction.

● Elves can’t both not experience and experience sexual attraction. Though this was conceded.

● Asexual romanc is a thing.

Tolkien wrote an essay entitled "Laws and Customs Among the Eldar," which appears in The History of Middle-Earth, Volume X, Morgoth's Ring. Among the several subjects it covers is a discussion of marriage, sexuality, and childbearing among Elves. As Ernest says, they follow Tolkien's highly orthodox religious views. In effect, Elves are good Catholics. Elves marry once in their lives barring extraordinary circumstances. They marry young (at least in the peace of Valinor), often wedding childhood sweethearts. Although in polite society a marriage feast is held, legal marriage only requires that the couple invoke the name of Eru and have sex--it is the "act of bodily union" that achieves marriage. Sex is fun for the Eldar, but its primary purpose is procreation (impossible for a gay couple). Elves lose their libido after they're done having children. There's no room for homosexual union in this world. Tolkien certainly knew of such things, but at best he would have considered homosexuality to be unfortunate. Like most British men of his generation, he would likely have considered it a perversion. (Homosexuality was a crime in England until 1967.)

As one might guess, a lot of people don't like Tolkien's ultra-orthodox views of sex. (I don't either--marriage for eternity, with no whoopee past a certain point, sounds like a drag.) People such as fan-fiction writers and fan artists, as well as just plain readers, find ways to rationalize departures from LaCE. They point out the inconsistencies in Tolkien's own stories, such as Eol's forced marriage (rape) of Aredhel. They point out that LaCE provides that Elves marry and beget children unless "ill chance" or "strange fate" prevents it, suggesting that a gay relationship could fall under the "strange fate" description. They question the in-universe reliability of the collector/narrator (a medieval Englishman named Eriol). Or they simply ignore it. But there's no doubt in my mind that Tolkien meant what he said and believed it to be an ideal.

● Elves are only explicitly “good Catholics” insofar as it pertains to divorce. That is tied to their nature, as marriage is tied to their very spirits. This hardly means that Elves are “good Catholics” in any other areas.

● It is not explicitly stated, as far as I can see, that Elves can only experience romantic attraction with the intent of procreation.

● Perhaps there is no room for homosexual marriage among the Eldar (which remains debatable), but that hardly precludes mere attraction.

● Tolkien meant what he said, yes, but he said nothing of homosexuality, so…




The bottom line is that, since we know people in reality can experience homosexual romance and attraction, and Elves are just people in most respects, Tolkien would had to have explicitly stated that Elves are only able to experience opposite-sex attraction. The mere absence of text to the contrary does not mean that the subject in question is therefore impossible, especially if only hypothetically.

There is no clear answer on the question of gay Elves, and as such it is perfectly possible to entertain the notion without breaking canon.

I will however concede the point if texts are cited that clearly refute my counter-arguments, but if that’s the case I can only say that a clearly indefensible flaw exists in Tolkien’s works: after all, it’s one thing not to be represented in a work of fiction; it is a whole other thing if even the hypothetical possibility of representation is made impossible.

 

[Monster_Duck]

Why is anyone arguing about this? Is there a specific elf who you think experiences same sex attraction? Are you trying to write a fanfiction (if so go for it lol). You aren't going to find Tolkien saying: "No elves are faggots" I strongly doubt he would imagine anyone in his perfect Catholic Arda being gay though. There aren't any canonically gay/lesbian elves. If you want to make one gay go for it, as long as you are fine with making it inaccurate lore-wise. ................................ Wait are you one of those people that think Merry and Pippin and Gimli and Legolas are a thing? If so you should uninstall life.

Sorry if I hurt anyones feelings

 

[SPACE_LEMON]

Why is anyone arguing about this? Is there a specific elf who you think experiences same sex attraction? Are you trying to write a fanfiction (if so go for it lol). You aren't going to find Tolkien saying: "No elves are faggots" I strongly doubt he would imagine anyone in his perfect Catholic Arda being gay though. There aren't any canonically gay/lesbian elves. If you want to make one gay go for it, as long as you are fine with making it inaccurate lore-wise. ................................ Wait are you one of those people that think Merry and Pippin and Gimli and Legolas are a thing? If so you should uninstall life. Sorry if I hurt anyones feelings

It's being argued only because someone made the claim that Elves cannot physically be gay in Tolkien's universe. It has nothing to do with fan-fiction or shipping of characters.

Wait, did you seriously just use the word "faggot"?

 

[ryttyr]

So, let me get this straight. Those against gay elves say it's physically impossible for elves to be homosexual even hypothetically because Tolkien wouldn't have considered the elves to be capable of such a crime, which homosexuality was seen as during his lifetime. Whilst those for gay elves say that since there is nothing in Tolkien's writings what so ever that explicitly states that elves can't be homosexual there hypothetically could have been homosexual elves in Middle-Earth.

My personal opinion is that the author's thoughts regarding their fictional world are practically cannon (unless they say otherwise). However in this case I'd say that whilst openly homosexual elves in Middle-Earth would be unlikely there simply isn't enough evidence (or in fact any evidence at all) for wether or not elves could be homosexual.

 

[SPACE_LEMON]

So, let me get this straight. Those against gay elves say it's physically impossible for elves to be homosexual even hypothetically because Tolkien wouldn't have considered the elves to be capable of such a crime, which homosexuality was seen as during his lifetime. Whilst those for gay elves say that since there is nothing in Tolkien's writings what so ever that explicitly states that elves can't be homosexual there hypothetically could have been homosexual elves in Middle-Earth.

My personal opinion is that the author's thoughts regarding their fictional world are practically cannon (unless they say otherwise). However in this case I'd say that whilst openly homosexual elves in Middle-Earth would be unlikely there simply isn't enough evidence (or in fact any evidence at all) for wether or not elves could be homosexual.

I generally keep art and artist at a distance in my mind. Too many great things have been created by people with terribly problematic points of view. Not that I'm at all saying Tolkien is such a case.

 

[RubenPieterMark]

I don't think the final conclusion on discord was that there couldn't be homosexual Elves, but rather that it was a pointless discussion. As Monster put it, why are you so keen on finding out if there are possibly homosexual Elves? If it's for fanfiction; there is plenty of lore accurate and inaccurate fanfiction. It's called fiction for a reason. Otherwise I see no point in trying to reach a consensus. Ppl will always disagree on whether it's possible or not.
One last thing: the con-argument that 'Elves can't be gay because they're perfect' was only shared once on discord. It's a bit weak (and offensive) argument, but it's been put against him already. I don't think anyone uses that argument except for that night.

So can we agree on a disagree? It's utterly irrelevant for a Minecraft server trying to build Middle-earth.

 

[SPACE_LEMON]

I don't think the final conclusion on discord was that there couldn't be homosexual Elves, but rather that it was a pointless discussion. As Monster put it, why are you so keen on finding out if there are possibly homosexual Elves? If it's for fanfiction; there is plenty of lore accurate and inaccurate fanfiction. It's called fiction for a reason. Otherwise I see no point in trying to reach a consensus. Ppl will always disagree on whether it's possible or not.
One last thing: the con-argument that 'Elves can't be gay because they're perfect' was only shared once on discord. It's a bit weak (and offensive) argument, but it's been put against him already. I don't think anyone uses that argument except for that night.

So can we agree on a disagree? It's utterly irrelevant for a Minecraft server trying to build Middle-earth.

Those on the "no gay Elves" side of the debate did not in fact concede that there's no clear answer, but rather that it's impossible. They were pretty adamant on that. This was a rebuttal to that point, nothing more.

My point is precisely that there's no clear-cut answer, contrary to those who took offence at even hypothetically entertaining the possibility.

Yes it's pointless, and yes it's irrelevant. Nevertheless it was hotly debated. Besides, loads of things completely unrelated to the server are discussed on here all the time. I don't see the problem in having this discussion.

 

[KinkySauron]

I think it can be simplified to one sentence: If it is possible for a member of the valar, creating by eru's will to be corrupted as strongly as melkor was, then it is possible for a less 'perfect' being to be homosexual. Although it is really not that relevant

 

[Eriol_Eandur]

A lore discussion thread without any post from me? I can't allow that to happen!

There is not much to say for me though. Just that I'm a bit concerned about how emotional this became. It seems to me that though it's a lore discussion at the surface there is a hidden dispute about the attitude towards homosexuality (e.g. considering homosexuality as being "not perfect").
It's hard to draw a line here. I would not call it a political discussion. But I think it's better not continue it for two reasons:
1. Not really relevant for building at MCME (which alone would not be a reason to close this)
2. I fear peoples feelings could get hurt by some more rash statements about homosexuality (together with reason 1. this is enough for me to close this)