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A Noobs guide to Lore

kiyz

Developer
Developer
In the Hobbits section at the start:
JordD04 said:
Main Groups: Harefoots, Stoors, and Fallohides
Is it not "Harfoots" as opposed to "Harefoots"? It is spelt "Harfoots" in the Fellowship of the Ring, Book I. And in the section on The Shire you spell it "Harfoots":
JordD04 said:
Founders: Marcho and Blanco (Hobbits - Harfoots)
 
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JordD04

One Of Us, One of Us
In the Hobbits section at the start:

Is it not "Harfoots" as opposed to "Harefoots"? It is spelt "Harfoots" in the Fellowship of the Ring, Book I. And in the section on The Shire you spell it "Harfoots":
Thx, thought I missed all of those. Also, when did you download it? Because "Main Groups: Harefoots, Stoors, and Fallohides" was fixed a while back.
 

Olwe

Worthy of Mordor
By the way, Tolkein mentioned that at the time of T3A, there were many human slaves in Mordor, so maybe add Mordor as one of the places where men dwell?
Are you sure Tolkien wasn't referring to the Realm of Khand? It's just east of Mordor.

And jord, any possibility of adding a "Realms" section to your guide? You could have realms that were destroyed/abandoned with a * next to them.

As well, you could add "half trolls", "snow trolls" (Helm hammerhand is compared to one of thoses during the long winter, doesn't mean that they are real, but would be cool if added)

Also, weren't Marcho and Blanco Fallohides (please correct me if I am wrong)

And would their be any way to maybe add an "sub-species" group? For examples such as Druadan and Huorns.

Edit: Maybe also have a "Key Characters" section.
Edit: Maybe also a Valar and Maiar section, as they are important figures in Arda as a whole.

Not to sound like a critic or anything, really love the guides! :D
 
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wheelleee

MCME Connaisseur
No, he was not about the slaves. I reread several chapters stating this. Khand itself chose willingly to follow sauron. They were slaves in the region of Mordor called Nurnen.
 

Olwe

Worthy of Mordor
No, he was not about the slaves. I reread several chapters stating this. Khand itself chose willingly to follow sauron. They were slaves in the region of Mordor called Nurnen.
Apoligies.

Druadan wild-men were men :p.
I said this, when I wrote "Sub-topics" I thought of it to be lesser known, or similar kinds of one of the creatures he listed. (e.g. Druadan to men, Huorns to Ents.)
 

JordD04

One Of Us, One of Us
Are you sure Tolkien wasn't referring to the Realm of Khand? It's just east of Mordor.

And jord, any possibility of adding a "Realms" section to your guide? You could have realms that were destroyed/abandoned with a * next to them.

As well, you could add "half trolls", "snow trolls" (Helm hammerhand is compared to one of thoses during the long winter, doesn't mean that they are real, but would be cool if added)

Also, weren't Marcho and Blanco Fallohides (please correct me if I am wrong)

And would their be any way to maybe add an "sub-species" group? For examples such as Druadan and Huorns.

Edit: Maybe also have a "Key Characters" section.
Edit: Maybe also a Valar and Maiar section, as they are important figures in Arda as a whole.

Not to sound like a critic or anything, really love the guides! :D
I have stuff planned for the future, I'm only sticking to the basic most important stuff right now but I'm spreading out. I intend on doing a version that's just on the different creatures and one on Ainur too.
 

Lorwel

Dirt Conaisseur
Just something to point out: when you explain the placement of the vowels while writing with tengwar, you only say they're placed over the preceeding tengwa, but that's only the case for writing in Quenya. In Sindarin (or even in English) the usage is reversed and it gets placed to the following tengwa.
 

Finrod_Amandil

hon. Head Designer
Moderator
Commoner
Okay... I hope you did not excpect me to be completely silent about another Noobs Guide, even more when its about elvish :D

Generally for this edition I would use a slightly different format for the overviews, A short (1-2 sentences) description of each term would make much more sense than the bullish listing of the same attributes for all languages, or also to give some specific additional information e.g. "In the Third Age in Middle-Earth Quenya was only used rarely for ceremonial purposes while for the everyday speek Sindarin was used."

Languages:
I would focus on the TA languages only, everything else does nothing else than bring up complete confusion. Also I would replace the "Place of origin" with where it was spoken.
Some punctual corrections (sometimes debatable, ik)

Also I would (if available) place one or two famous quotes in the respective language.
  • The places of origin of Avarin and Eldarin are basically whole Middle-Earth; they progressively evolved during the Great March of the Elves and diverged with the forming of the different groups of elves during that journey
  • Eldarin and Avarin are kinda complementary terms, so it would be better to also use the terms Calaquendi and complementary to that Moriquendi (i'd also explain such terms; Light-elves and Dark-elves)
  • The Ñoldorin/Noldorin/Quenya/Quendya/Vanyarin stuff is a bit hard to clearly specify, the easiest explanation is that Quenya (spoken by the Noldor and Vanyar when they arrived Valinor) can be separated into Ñoldorin and Vanyarin, each of them just being the dialect of the respective elves. On one hand due to that the differences between those two are rather small and on the other Tolkien never wrote much about Vanyarin and Valinor in general the Noldor in Middle Earth are told to just speak Quenya, regardless that theres another dialect around. Thus i'd put the Ñoldorin in brackets and mainly use the term Quenya for the Noldor.
  • Telerin has mainly evolved in Beleriand before some of the Teleri went over the sea. In Middle-Earth Telerin diverged into Sindarin (in Beleriand) and Nandorin (Central Middle-Earth, by those elves who went on the Great March but never crossed the Misties). In Valinor however the original Telerin preserved quite well. Even though Quenya and Telerin influenced each other, theres still only Telerin in Valinor, and no Quenya Telerin.
Scriptures:
  • The name of the rune script is Cirth, not Cirith. cirith is Sindarin meaning "cleft" or "pass" as in Cirith Ungol.
  • As additional info you could mention on the Cirth that even though this scripture was used by the dwarves as main writing method it was developped by the elves.
  • Dunno exactly what you mean with the "runic" attribute; but i guess for the Cirth it should say "yes" instead of no.
  • Wanna please place an asterisk (*) on the statement about that vowels are placed on the proceeding consonant* as this is not true for all languages. Sindarin in Ómetehta-Mode aswell as mostly English do it the other way around. Also theres the possibility to write the vowels as full-height characters (as on the Moria West Gate)
  • I would highly recommend to divide the pronunciation part into Sindarin and Quenya, as there are many many things that only occur in Sindarin. I'd also divide again into consonants and vowels and generally bring in some order into that list.
If you plan on making another guide on elvish I would suggest doing an introduction to Sindarin grammar, starting with plural formations. With that topic you can cover many place-names throughout the lore.
 

JordD04

One Of Us, One of Us
Okay... I hope you did not excpect me to be completely silent about another Noobs Guide, even more when its about elvish :D

Generally for this edition I would use a slightly different format for the overviews, A short (1-2 sentences) description of each term would make much more sense than the bullish listing of the same attributes for all languages, or also to give some specific additional information e.g. "In the Third Age in Middle-Earth Quenya was only used rarely for ceremonial purposes while for the everyday speek Sindarin was used."

Languages:
I would focus on the TA languages only, everything else does nothing else than bring up complete confusion. Also I would replace the "Place of origin" with where it was spoken.
Some punctual corrections (sometimes debatable, ik)

Also I would (if available) place one or two famous quotes in the respective language.
  • The places of origin of Avarin and Eldarin are basically whole Middle-Earth; they progressively evolved during the Great March of the Elves and diverged with the forming of the different groups of elves during that journey
  • Eldarin and Avarin are kinda complementary terms, so it would be better to also use the terms Calaquendi and complementary to that Moriquendi (i'd also explain such terms; Light-elves and Dark-elves)
  • The Ñoldorin/Noldorin/Quenya/Quendya/Vanyarin stuff is a bit hard to clearly specify, the easiest explanation is that Quenya (spoken by the Noldor and Vanyar when they arrived Valinor) can be separated into Ñoldorin and Vanyarin, each of them just being the dialect of the respective elves. On one hand due to that the differences between those two are rather small and on the other Tolkien never wrote much about Vanyarin and Valinor in general the Noldor in Middle Earth are told to just speak Quenya, regardless that theres another dialect around. Thus i'd put the Ñoldorin in brackets and mainly use the term Quenya for the Noldor.
  • Telerin has mainly evolved in Beleriand before some of the Teleri went over the sea. In Middle-Earth Telerin diverged into Sindarin (in Beleriand) and Nandorin (Central Middle-Earth, by those elves who went on the Great March but never crossed the Misties). In Valinor however the original Telerin preserved quite well. Even though Quenya and Telerin influenced each other, theres still only Telerin in Valinor, and no Quenya Telerin.
Scriptures:
  • The name of the rune script is Cirth, not Cirith. cirith is Sindarin meaning "cleft" or "pass" as in Cirith Ungol.
  • As additional info you could mention on the Cirth that even though this scripture was used by the dwarves as main writing method it was developped by the elves.
  • Dunno exactly what you mean with the "runic" attribute; but i guess for the Cirth it should say "yes" instead of no.
  • Wanna please place an asterisk (*) on the statement about that vowels are placed on the proceeding consonant* as this is not true for all languages. Sindarin in Ómetehta-Mode aswell as mostly English do it the other way around. Also theres the possibility to write the vowels as full-height characters (as on the Moria West Gate)
  • I would highly recommend to divide the pronunciation part into Sindarin and Quenya, as there are many many things that only occur in Sindarin. I'd also divide again into consonants and vowels and generally bring in some order into that list.
If you plan on making another guide on elvish I would suggest doing an introduction to Sindarin grammar, starting with plural formations. With that topic you can cover many place-names throughout the lore.
I'm aware that Quenya became pretty rare in Middle-Earth in the Third-Age but it is still spoken to some extent and it's almost certainly still used in Valinor.
I mentioned a bunch of differen't languages partly because I thought it would interest people and partly because there wasn't much to right. That's sort of why I added the "Common TA" field so people know which are more important.
I've changed Avarin to Middle-Earth as the location of formation and I've changed Eldarin to Unspecified*.
I'm familiar that Vanyarin and Noldorin aren't well documented and they're basically just Quenya but that's the reason I classified them under Quenya.
Also, I've mentioned the Calaquendi and Moriquendi in a previous guide.
Cirith was a typo.
I didn't mention Dwarves because it's about Elvish, may mention it in a later edition.
The Cirth runic thing, should have said Yes, that's another copy/paste error.
The vowel and consonant thing, I'm familiar with the other methods, but I just wouldn't to mention the most common/most important part. But you're right, there should be an asterisk so I added one.
The pronunciation stuff was taken more or less straight out of a book. There is some order to it, I just didn't write what it is.
Also, I could use a hand with lining out the Sindarin/Quenya stuff for the pronunciation please.

Thx again for your help.
 

Lorwel

Dirt Conaisseur
As you asked for a hand, I'll try to classify the pronunciation stuff into Q, S or both. If I make some mistake, let Finrod correct me, I don't know a lot of Sindarin.

C – takes the value of k, never of s. Both
Ch – takes the value of the ch in the Scottish word loch. S (in Q this sound exists in some environments but it's written h)
Dh – represents the voiced th in then. S
F – represents the f in the English fine, expect when used at the end of a word when it takes the value of v, like in the English word of. Both (in Q it's always like fine, but that's because no word can end with f)
G – Is always a hard g, like in get, never like the English word region. Both
H – alone has the value of h in house and behold. Both (except in some environments in Q)
I – in Sindarin, when starting a word or when being followed by another vow, takes the value of the English y. (otherwise like a normal i)
L – is pronounced like the l in the English word let. Except when between e or I and a consonant or after e or I at the end of the word. In this case it is pronounced with the blade of the tongue rather than the tip. Both
Lh – represents an unvoiced, palatalised l. S
Ng – takes the value of ng in finger, except at the end of a word when it takes the value of Ng in sing. Both
Qu – has the sound of kw Q
Ph – has the sound of f in find S
Rh or hr – is voiceless (the first is S and the second Q, although in Q it is pronounced like normal r in the TA)
S – is voicless as in so. Both
Th – has the value of the voiceless th in thin. S
Ty – has the value of the t in British tune. Q
V – takes the value of the English v, not the German Both
w – takes the value of the English w, not the German. Hw is voiceless as in whale. Both
Y – in Quenya, takes the value of y in you. In Sindarin it takes the value of u in the French word lune.

From here onward, it goes for both languages, although not both languages have the same appearence of diphtongs.

I would also add the difference between short and long vowels, and how are these written. Hope that helps ^^
 

JordD04

One Of Us, One of Us
As you asked for a hand, I'll try to classify the pronunciation stuff into Q, S or both. If I make some mistake, let Finrod correct me, I don't know a lot of Sindarin.

C – takes the value of k, never of s. Both
Ch – takes the value of the ch in the Scottish word loch. S (in Q this sound exists in some environments but it's written h)
Dh – represents the voiced th in then. S
F – represents the f in the English fine, expect when used at the end of a word when it takes the value of v, like in the English word of. Both (in Q it's always like fine, but that's because no word can end with f)
G – Is always a hard g, like in get, never like the English word region. Both
H – alone has the value of h in house and behold. Both (except in some environments in Q)
I – in Sindarin, when starting a word or when being followed by another vow, takes the value of the English y. (otherwise like a normal i)
L – is pronounced like the l in the English word let. Except when between e or I and a consonant or after e or I at the end of the word. In this case it is pronounced with the blade of the tongue rather than the tip. Both
Lh – represents an unvoiced, palatalised l. S
Ng – takes the value of ng in finger, except at the end of a word when it takes the value of Ng in sing. Both
Qu – has the sound of kw Q
Ph – has the sound of f in find S
Rh or hr – is voiceless (the first is S and the second Q, although in Q it is pronounced like normal r in the TA)
S – is voicless as in so. Both
Th – has the value of the voiceless th in thin. S
Ty – has the value of the t in British tune. Q
V – takes the value of the English v, not the German Both
w – takes the value of the English w, not the German. Hw is voiceless as in whale. Both
Y – in Quenya, takes the value of y in you. In Sindarin it takes the value of u in the French word lune.

From here onward, it goes for both languages, although not both languages have the same appearence of diphtongs.

I would also add the difference between short and long vowels, and how are these written. Hope that helps ^^
cheers
 

Finrod_Amandil

hon. Head Designer
Moderator
Commoner
I'd directly make two separate lists for Q and S, may be on some points redundant but as reader you will rather want to focus on one language at a time. (note: this will be a pretty extensive and complete coverage)
I give an english example word (cursive) only if no further explanations are needed, along with an example word in the respective language (bold)


Quenya:
Important note: Differently than in English where vowel pronunciation does not really follow any rules and can vary very much in Quenya all vowels are always pronounced the same way. This is also true for all the consonants tough there may be more than one way to pronounce certain consonants, but always following certain rules.

vowels
Of all vowels long versions exist (marked with an accent: á, é, í, ó, ú)
a - bath - aran (king)
e - bed - elen (star), endë (center). Final "e" are also pronounced this way, to emphasize this final e's are often written with diaresis (ë), but that is optional.
i - sick - Isil (moon)
o - hot - Noldor
u
- brute - tulca (strong)

half-vowels
These nearly sound like vowels but are technically (regarding emphation, see below) consonants.
w - water - nanwa (true, real). Pronounce this very 'round', almost like an u. If you read it like nanua and it'll most likely sound right.
y - you - tyalië (game, sport), yáve (fruit)

diphtonges
Diphtonges are combinations of two vowels that form only one syllable (normally every syllable has only one vowel).
All vowel combos beside the following six are no diphtonges and thus form two syllables.
Pronunciation: The vowels just sound like the single vowels from above close together. Except for iu the first vowel of the two is more emphasized.
ai - naira (vast, empty)
oi - oialë (eternity)
ui - tuilë (spring)
au - taurë (big forest)
eu - ceuran (new moon)
iu - tiuca (fat)

consonants
Special for Quenya is, that there are some consonants which can only occur in certain combinations with other consonants, e.g. b, d and g. Also there are some which don't occur at all (j, k, z). Furthermore, at the end of a word only vowels and the consonants n, l, r, s and t can occur.
c - car - corma (ring). Never sounds like the c in city
f - fine - falas (shore)
h - hot - hatal (spear)
Exceptions:
- hl / hr - hlas (ear), hrívë (winter). just like normal r / l but with increased air-flow
- ht [xt]/[çt] - ohtar (warrior). In front of a 't' the h takes a sound that does not occur in English, when it follows the vowels a, o and u it equals the sound in scottish loch or german acht, after e and i its the sound as in german Licht
- hy [ç] - hyarmen (South). Similar to the sound mentioned above, but less 'rough'. cf. german Licht
l - light - linta (fast)
m - mist - númen (West)
mb - Rambo - ramba (wall, mountain range)
n - no - númen (West)
nd - land - anda (long)
ng [ŋg] - ringa (cold)
p - past - parma (book)
qu - Quenya. this is just another way of writing cw, cf. c and w (Note: thus the 'u' in qu does technically not count as vowel.)
r - very - ranco (arm). With rolling tongue (always!)
s - so - súrë (wind). always voiceless.
t - tag - taurë (big forest)
v - vast - vilya (air)
x - tixë. Other way of writing cs, cf. c and s


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sindarin:

vowels
Of all vowels long versions exist (marked with an accent: â, ê, î, ô, û, ŷ or á, é, í, ó, ú, ý)
a - bath - haran (hundred)
e - bed - mellon (friend)
i - sick - ithil (moon)
o - hot - orch (orc)
u - brute - ulunn (monster)
y - yrch (orcs). This is the sound as in french lune or german Glück


half-vowel
Nearly sounds like a vowel but technically (regarding emphation, see below) is a consonant.
w - water - Arwen. Read this nearly like "Aruen"
(-aw at the end of words is actually the diphtonge au and is pronounced like that)


diphtonges
Diphtonges are combinations of two vowels that form only one syllable (normally every syllable has only one vowel).
All vowel combos beside the following six are no diphtonges and thus form two syllables.
Pronunciation: The vowels just sound like the single vowels from above close together. Except for iu the first vowel of the two is more emphasized.
ai - Morgai (black palisade)
ae - laer (song)
au - laug (warm), naw (idea)
ei - eithel (water source)
oe - goe (fear). oe in old words mostly changed to e (e.g. Arnoediad -> Arnediad)
ui - gruitha- (scare so.)


consonants
The initially voiceless variants of r, l and w (rh, lh, hw) are in the Third Age pronounced the same way as the normal voiced r, l, w
b
- bath - Balan (god, Vala)
c - car - caer (ten)
- ch - orch. [x] cf. scottish loch or german acht.
d - dead - gathrod (cave)
- dh - then - edhel (elf). The voiced th [ð]
f - fine - fanui (cloudy). -f at the end of words equals v [v].
g - good - galad (light)
h - hot - hollen (closed)
l - light - lembas ('way-bread')
m - mist - megil (sword)
n - no - naur (flame, fire)
p - past - Perian (Hobbit)
- ph - fine - raph (rope). equals f
r
- very - harad (south)
s - so - Imladris (Rivendell)
t - tag - taur (forest)
- th - thin - lalaith (laughing). voiceless th [θ]
v - vast - tavor (woodpecker)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

emphation (applies for both Q. and S.)
In Quenya and Sindarin there are very concrete and strict rules regarding which syllable to stress:
  • Two-syllable words are always emphasized on the first syllable. (elen, tiulë, Quenya)
  • Words with three and more are pronounced on the 2nd last IF one or more of the following applies:
    - The vowel in the 2nd last syllable is long (marked with an accent) - cemenri
    - The 2nd last syllable contains a dipthonge (attention: only the six ones mentioned above are diphtonges) - tennoio
    - The vowel in the 2nd last syllable is followed by 2 or more consonants (so-called "closed syllable") - pelennor
    If none of these applies, the word is emphasized on the 3rd last syllable - Narmacil




@Lorwel Your list gives already many good points, but some small things:
- Theres no hard g in Quenya
- Never heard of differences in the pronunciation of "L" for certain surrounding vowels
(- German pronounces V in two different ways, one being the english one.)
 
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Lorwel

Dirt Conaisseur
Yes, I only copied the original text in Jord's guide and wrote whether it applied to Q or S.
The g part I wrote it applies to both because although it doesn't appear alone in Q, it does appear in the cluster ng, and then is to be pronounced like a hard g. When you say ng is to be pronounced only like [ŋ], I think you are mistaken. It was in fact the pronunciation of ng at the beginning of words (usually spelt by Tolkien with ñ), but in the TA it was pronounced [n]. When in the middle of words, the n of the cluster ng was indeed pronounced [ŋ], but that was followed by the distinct sound of the g.
The difference in the L pronounciation is that it is slightly palatised in some environments, but it's a difference than can be ommited without problems.

Also, keep in mind that H before T only gets the pronounciation [x] when it comes after a, o, u. When it comes after e, i (that is -eht-, -iht-), it is pronounced like hy

PS: You seem to be very knowledgeable in elvish languages. I'll gladly talk with you about them via PM or other means, to avoid cluttering the forums :)
 
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